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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2008-11 > 1228052277


From: Steven Lominac <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] NPE Frequency
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 07:37:57 -0600
References: <e0d2d2870810280721g1af361d4y8d7be2d00132e9e2@mail.gmail.com><000001c93a77$4be7ee20$e3b7ca60$@com> <000001c93a82$de6c9fb0$9b45df10$@com><000001c93f3b$7b41f3f0$71c5dbd0$@com> <000001c95183$fe39b450$faad1cf0$@com><BAY119-W257FD25ED267E572F773D5D5070@phx.gbl> <000001c952d4$e07be490$a173adb0$@com>
In-Reply-To: <000001c952d4$e07be490$a173adb0$@com>


I see what you mean Sandy. Don't bother with the project yet. I only have one tester other than me and he just sent his sample in. I am talking to other lines like Lammerich from Germany and Lomenech from France. Ran into a couple of coincidences, I have Lomenech and Lamouric's in Brittany, France in the 1500s and Lamineck (my line)/Lammerichs in the Lauterecken area of Germany in the mid to late 1600/1700s. A connection to Bretagne would probably help the thread in pinpointing one of the European M222s to a time and place that may be able to help some of them with their ancestors or perhaps even a starting point for the M222 itself (yeah I know, blasphemy). This little monastery town in Brittany is some 1400 years old.

Steve> From: > To: > Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 10:17:40 +0000> Subject: Re: [R-M222] NPE Frequency> > Hi Steve> > I agree that social behaviour changes over time, but I seriously doubt> whether mankind's natural functions have changed much over the centuries.> But yes, it is a difficult thing to nail down and my calculations were> intended to be illustrative - I make no claims that they are definitive.> > What they illustrate, I believe, is that the assumption of a continuous> passing down of a blood-line in a family over many generations is badly> flawed, and is likely to lead to spurious conclusions.> > Good luck with your project - I'll see if I can find it.> > > Sandy> > > > > > -----Original Message-----> From: > [mailto:] On Behalf Of Steven Lominac> Sent: 29 November 2008 15:41> To: > Subject: Re: [R-M222] NPE Frequency> > > It happened exactly that way in my own family. My brother and his> girlfriend didn't work out at a very young age. The subsequent son took on> his mom's surname. My nephew has a different surname even though he is of> the male line and one day if he wants to test I am assuming we we will be an> exact match. I am curently talking to some Lomenech's in France as I have> just commenced a DNA project in FTDNA and got a reply from Christelle> Lomenech as such:> > "Hello Steven,I'm Christelle, Charles daughter. Our surname, Lomenech,> appeared in Bretagne to the 11th century.In Bretagne, we have an historic> language, the "breton". In breton, the origin of Lomenech is "Loc" (place)> and "Menec'h" (monk).It wants to say "the place of the monk". Our ancestors> thus lived near a monastery. My researches stopped there for the moment."> > I guess the point being there will be a number of people with this surname> over this 8-9 centuries that will not match me for one reason or another as> Sandy pointed out but.....I don't know if you can equate today's social> order (chaotic as far as unwed mother's etc. is concerned) with centuries> past. That number seems high Sandy but that's pure conjecture on my part.> > Steve Lominac > From: > To:> > Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 18:06:09 +0000> Subject: Re:> [R-M222] NPE Frequency> > Hi All> > I found one estimate that the number of> adopted people in the USA is> somewhere between 6m and 10m, so 3% of the> population may be about right.> > What I'm trying to estimate is that> proportion of males who have a surname> different to that of their natural> father. Apart from adoption, it can> happen when the family surname is> passed down a female line. This happens in> a young pregnancy where the> mother doesn't marry, and the child is given the> mother's maiden name as a> surname.> > Another way a child can end up with a surname other than that of> his or her> natural father is a young pregnancy, where the mother marries> someone other> than the natural father.> > Then there are the kind of NPE's> by which a child is fathered by someone> other than a married woman's> husband.> > There are probably other ways that I haven't thought of. > > All> in all, I'd say it wouldn't be far out to work on about 6% of male> children> ending up with a surname other than that of his natural father.> > The> implications of this are quite startling. It means that going back say> 50> generations, the chances of a male child having the Y-chromosones of his>> paper-trail 47xg-grandfather is only about about (.94)^50 = .0453> > This> seems quite relevant to me in considering for instance the DNA of>> purportedly Dalriadic descendants. In particular, the roughly 10% R1b1c7>> found in Clan McDonald would seem to be about what one would expect if they>> were originally R1b1c7.> > Any thought, anyone?> > > Sandy > > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message-----> From: >> [mailto:] On Behalf Of Sandy Paterson> Sent:> 05 November 2008 11:42> To: > Subject: [R-M222] NPE> Frequency> > Does anyone in the group have a view on NPE frequency?> > For> purposes of the exercise, the definition of NPE includes teenage>> pregnancies where the mother either never marries, or marries someone other>> than the natural father of the child).> > > Sandy Paterson> > R1b1c7> Research and Links:> > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/>>; -------------------------------> To unsubscribe from the list, please send> an email to> with the word 'unsubscribe'> without the> quotes in the subject and the body of the message> > R1b1c7> Research and Links:> > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/>>; -------------------------------> To unsubscribe from the list, please send> an email to with the word 'unsubscribe'> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message> _________________________________________________________________> Get more done, have more fun, and stay more connected with Windows MobileR. > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119642556/direct/01/>; R1b1c7 Research and Links:> > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/>; -------------------------------> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the> quotes in the subject and the body of the message> > R1b1c7 Research and Links:> > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/>; -------------------------------> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
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