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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2008-11 > 1228107644


From: John McLaughlin <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] NPE Frequency
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 23:00:44 -0600
References: <c2c.4b99edb4.36649580@aol.com><BAY119-W25377ED4DC4AAF39190258D5010@phx.gbl>
In-Reply-To: <BAY119-W25377ED4DC4AAF39190258D5010@phx.gbl>


<Yes John,
I have read your hypothesis before on the possibility of M222 starting
on the continent

That's not my hypothesis. That's what O'Rahilly had to say (Early Irish
History and Mythology). I have mentioned it in connection with R1b1c7
because it's a widely known theory in Irish pre-history. According to
O'Rahilly, the Q-Celts of which there were two groups, northern and
southern, were relative latecomers to Ireland. The southern group were
the Eoghanachta; the northern group were the Connachta (an earlier
tribal name from which later arose the Ui Neill of NW Ireland).
According to O'Rahilly, both of these groups came to Ireland from Gaul.
O'Rahilly found no evidence of the Connachta in Ptolemy's map of
Ireland which is probably one of the reasons he said what he did.

What we have found is R1b1c7 correlates strongly with the Connachta
and their later offshoot, the Ui Neill. The Trinity study made that
clear with their references to Nial 'of the Nine Hostages', the ancestor
of the Ui Neill in NW Ireland. Anyone who seriously spends time
checking the DNA associated with the known chieftains of the Ui Neill
and Connachta will come to the same conclusion.

On the other hand, the DNA experts (except for Dr. Faux) seem to be of
the unanimous opinion that R1b1c7 originated in Ireland. I once asked
Ken Knordtfeldt why he was so sure of that and he said "that's where the
haplotypes are."

O'Rahilly's theories are well known and have been around for a long
time. So it's natural to put them to the test via DNA. Irish
researchers are also interested in testing the validity of tribal
connections found in the ancient genealogical manuscripts of Ireland.
So it's not just O'Rahilly and his theories we're dealing with.

One bit of genealogical folklore seems to have bitten the dust thanks to
DNA testing. Irish pedigrees link the Airgialla to the same stock as
the Connachta and Ui Neill. But none of the major chieftains of the
Airgialla testable today in terms of surnames have many if any R1b1c7
DNA. That includes the Maguires, McMahons of Monaghan and O'Hanlons.

O'Rahilly put out a lot of theories on tribes all over Ireland, not just
the Ui Neill. And he wasn't always right about everything. But he did
nail the Airgialla descent as a fabrication. I have no idea if he's
right about the Connachta or not at this point. But I also don't think
the DNA "experts" have everything right either.

For those on this list who don't believe there is any tribal basis to
DNA whatsoever I would advise concentrating on a known part of Ireland
(Donegal) where the leading chieftains are well known from history. The
major families were the O'Donnells, O'Gallaghers, O'Boyles and
O'Dohertys. In their territories were several other well known families
with a similar Ui Neill descent (McLaughlins and O'Brollaghans). Would
it be a great surprise to non believers in a tribal descent that every
one of these families is a majority R1b1c7? Don't take my word for it;
verify it for yourself if you're not convinced by the Trinity study.
These families are all said to descend from Nial from one of two sons,
Conal gulban and Owen.

We could take the O'Dohertys as a case study. I'm using them simply
because they have the largest surname project in the NW of Ireland.

G haplogroup (1)
I haplogroup (4)
R1a haplogroup (2)
J2 haplogroup (2)
R1b1c7 haplogroup (37)
R1b group 2 (2)
R1b group 3 (4)
R1b Group (2)

At this stage of the project there were 54 Dohertys tested. The G
haplogroup testee was a Daughtry, which may or may not be the same
surname. It is also important to realize that not all Dohertys were
from Donegal. At least one other sept in the south of Ireland (O
Dubhartach) also had a surname similarly anglicised (O Dorrity, Doherty).

So 68.5% of all Dohertys tested in this project are R1b1c7.
Furthermore most of these R1b1c7 Dohertys have some unique "Doherty"
markers that tie them together as related. Obviously we do have some
Doherty NPEs in the group, especially the I and R1a haplogroups. The
current O Dochartaigh chieftain is R1b1c7 (a test was taken by his
brother, both living in Spain).

We do not know who the non R1b1c7 Dohertys are in the R1b groups. They
also could be Donegal NPEs; or just as likely members of some other
Doherty clan in Ireland like the O Dubhartaighs.

Our McLaughlin R1b1c7 situation is more complex because there are
more possible origins for the surname in Ireland and Scotland. But our
single largest group of Mclaughlins are R1b1c7 and all share some unique
"McLaughlin" markers that show they are related.

The McLaughlins and O'Dohertys share an ancestor in Nial 'of the Nine
Hostages.' I personally don't have a lot of faith in the historicity of
Nial but I don't think there's any question of their common descent from
someone who lived at about the time of Nial. Does this constitute a
tribe? As far as I'm concerned it does, the tribe in question being the
Ui Neill. A little further back in time (probably) we have surnames
connected to the Connachta (O'Beirne, McGovern, O'Reilly, O'Rourke,
etc). I don't have an exact breakdown on these DNA projects but the
samples I've seen are also R1b1c7.

I do not think the "tribal" thing can be carried back much further
than this and it's completely limited to Ireland.

In Scotland the R1b1c7 matches are never (that I've seen) concentrated
in one surname as they are in Ireland. I haven't seen a single Scottish
"clan" that is mainly R1b1c7 or had R1b1c7 chieftains. Maybe there's
one out there somewhere but I haven't seen it. Instead the matches
appear in a lot of different surnames, most with no known connections
between them. I would put this down to the destruction of whatever
tribal unity existed in Scotland prior to the invasions of the
Anglo-Saxons, Vikings and Normans. I think the reason we're seeing a
strong continuity in Ireland in certain tribal surnames is the tribes in
Ireland survived for centuries and most were still intact at the British
conquest in the late 1500s. The chieftains were appointed because they
were related to the previous chieftains and no outside force was ever
able to destroy that tribal network.

The latest Trinity study remarked that this tribal continuity in DNA was
stronger in the Ui Neill and Connachta of the north than in the southern
Irish tribes who showed much more diversity in DNA. But even so these
southern tribes show large groups of related members sharing a common
ancestor. Why that might be I do not know unless the southern Irish
tribes were much older than the northern ones with more time to take in
non related interlopers.


John











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