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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 1996-07 > 0836857534


From: Jared Olar <>
Subject: Re: Boyd; de Insulis
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 15:25:34 -0500
In-Reply-To: <ntaylor-0507961524270001@cis-ts2-slip15.cis.brown.edu>


On Fri, 5 Jul 1996, Nathaniel Taylor wrote:

> Jared,
>
> I haven't been paying close attention to your Boyd posts, but recently I
> was scrolling through an AT for the alleged mother of Alexander Magruder
> of Maryland, and noticed the following:
>
> 8. Sir Thomas Boyd [?]
> 7. Margaret Boyd, m. Alexander Montgomery, 1st Lord Montgomery
> 6. Margaret Montgomery, m. John Stewart, 1st Earl of Lennox
> 5. Elizabeth Stewart, m. Archibald Campbell, 2d Earl of Argyll
> 4. Donald Campbell, Abbot of Coupar Angus, (had, illegitimately):
> 3. Nicholas Campbell of Keithick, Dean of Lismore Cathedral,
> m. Katherine Drummond, daughter of George Drummond
> 2. Margaret Campbell, m. (2d) Alexander Magruder (she m. (1)
> Andrew Drummond, Laird of Balliclove)
> [said to be parents of:]
> 1. Alexander Magruder, colonist in Maryland
>
> See, for Montgomery, ES 3:640; CP at Lennox and Argyll, Roberts' Royal
> Descents, p. 99 and Charles G. Kurz & Thomas G. Magruder, Jr., "The
> Ancestral History of Margaret Campbell of Keithick," Yearbook of the
> American Clan Gregor Society, 62 (1978), 55-65; and "The McGruder Lineage
> in Scotland to Magruder Family in America," Yearbook... 63 (1979), 53-71.
> There is only a circumstantial case for identifying the Marylander as son
> of this family.
>
> Because I don't have a great deal of confidence in the colonial link of
> this descent, even though it made it into Roberts, I haven't spent a lot
> of time investigating it.

I don't know anything about the colonial link, but the Campbell lineage
on the **other** side of the Atlantic seems to be correct . . . .

> But anyhow, is this Boyd line at all related to what you've investigated?

Yes, it is indeed related. Margaret Boyd (no. 7 above) was a sister of
Robert Boyd of Kilmarnock, 1st. Lord Boyd. (And if I can ever "nail down"
my mother's Stewart ancestry, I'd have a descent from the 1st. Earl of
Argyll, including these Boyds.) Robert is the subject of the posts dealing
with the murder of Sir James Stewart of Blackhall and Ardgowan. According
to Scots Peerage, the mother of Lord Boyd and his sister Margaret is
unknown--but I don't know if she has been identified since Scots Peerage
was published.

> And by the way, there are two descents from an Agnes (or two Agneses) "of
> the Isles" in this AT also:
>
> 8. Agnes of the Isles, m. Sir John Montgomery
> 7. Alexander Montgomery, 1st Lord Montgomery
> (etc. as above)
>
> and:
>
> 7. Agnes of the Isles, m. John Stewart, 2d Lord Lorn
> 6. Elizabeth Stewart, m. Colin Campbell, 1st Earl of Argyll
> 5. Archibald Campbell, 2d Earl of Argyll
> (etc. as above)
>
> Are these the same woman? Is either or both a member of the "Lyle" family
> discussed in your posts?

I've also wondered whether these two "Agnes de Insulis"es were the same.
I don't think it is very likely, for the following reasons:

1. "Agnes of the Isles" was Sir John Montgomerie's FIRST wife. Scots
Peerage, vol. III, p.430, tells us that Agnes died before March
1413/4, and that Sir John probably died a hostage in England about
1428.

2. "Agnes of the Isles" was the only known wife of John Stewart,
2nd. Lord Lorne. Roberts' RD500 page 99 is the only source I have
for John's marriage to this Agnes (he cites A. I. Dunlop and David
MacLauchlan, _Calendar of Scottish Supplications to Rome, Volume
IV, 1433-1447_ (1983), p. 295, item 1192). Scots Peerage, vol. V,
p.3, tells us that John Stewart was attacked by Alan M'Coule, and
that John died of his wounds at Dunstaffnage 20 Dec. 1463.

3. John Stewart's parents received a papal dispensation allowing them
to marry, dated 27 Sept. 1397. This indicates that John, the eldest
son, was born about 1400. He was probably not even 20 years old
when Sir John Montgomerie's first wife Agnes died.

4. If John Stewart's wife Agnes is identical to Sir John Montgomerie's
first wife Agnes, she must not have died before 1413/4, but instead
must have been divorced from Sir John--but there is no trace of an
annullment, as far as I can tell--no problem with Sir John's son
by Agnes succeeding his father--no taint of illegitimacy.

So I find it EXTREMELY unlikely that these two Agneses are in fact the
same woman. John Stewart belonged to the generation following Sir John
and Agnes--John Stewart's parents were exact contemporaries of Sir John
and Agnes.

As far as I can tell, these two Agneses had no connection to the Lyle
family. For one thing, in one case we have DE INSULIS ("of the Isles")
while in the other case we have DE INSULA ("of the Isle"). I've wondered
whether DE INSULIS refers to the Gaelic Lordship of the Isles, the
MacDougals and MacDonalds who descended from Somerled, subregulus of the
Isles.

Sir John Montgomerie's Agnes and John Stewart's Agnes may well have been
related, but I don't know anything about their ancestry or familial
affiliation . . . .

Sorry I couldn't be of any more help.

Jared

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