Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2001-12 > 1007671725

From: "John Higgins" <>
Subject: RE: Who is the mother of Dorothy Sutton?
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 12:48:45 -0800
In-Reply-To: <>

The sources for the Musgrave and Wrottesley information in the message below
(aside from the Visitations) are as follows:

Collectanea Musgraviana : notes on the ancient family of Musgrave of
Musgrave, Wesmorland and its various branches in Cumberland, Yorkshire,
Northumberland, Somerset & etc., by Percy Musgrave; published in Leeds in
1911 (the LDS library has a copy on film and I have seen a fiche copy
produced by UMI in 1991)

History of the family of Wrottesley of Wrottesley, Co. Stafford, by George
Wrottesley (Exeter, W. Plllard & Co., 1903); (I have seen a fiche copy
produced by UMI in 1998, and it also appeared as a supplement to The
Genealogist magazine (new series) following vol. 19)

John Higgins

> -----Original Message-----
> From: brad verity [mailto:]
> Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 11:16 AM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Who is the mother of Dorothy Sutton?
> (John Higgins) wrote in message
> >A Musgrave pedigree appears in the 1564 Visitation of Yorkshire (Harleian
> >Societ, Visitation series, 16:317) and comfirms what Brad has
> reported from
> >the Baronetage of England regarding the relationship of Sir John
> Musgrave
> >to
> >the rest of the family and also his two marriages. Of particular note is
> >the fact that the Visitation calls the 2nd wife of Sir John Margaret, not
> >Dorothy, BUT with a note saying that she is called Dorothy in the Dudley
> >pedigree in this same volume (p. 105) and Margaret in the Visitation of
> >1584. Sir John and Margaret are shown as having 3 sons and 2 daughters.
> Many thanks for looking this up, John. Leo provided some dates on the
> Musgraves yesterday - Sir Thomas Musgrave of Edenhall (father of Sir John
> Musgrave who married the Sutton sister of Lord Dudley) died in
> October 1457.
> So Sir John (the second of four sons) had to have been born no
> later than
> 1455.
> >In the Dudley pedigree in the 1564 Visitation, there are TWO
> children named
> >Dorothy shown as children of Sir Edmund Dudley or Sutton by his 2nd wife
> >Maud Clifford: one married to Sir John Musgrave and the other to Richard
> >Wrottesley. (Definitely NOT two marriages for a single person) This
> >suggests the possibility that the Dudley pedigree wrongly calls the
> >Musgrave
> >wife Dorothy instead of Margaret and that Dorothy was married once, not
> >twice. Perhaps the two Dorothys were collapsed together by subsequent
> >genealogists.
> This is probably indeed what happened. It would be unusual for a
> couple to
> have two daughters with the same first name both living to adulthood -
> unless one was betrothed and out of the household by the time the
> other was
> born.
> >A collection of materials on the Musgrave family published by Percy
> >Musgrave
> >in 1911 mentions the Dorothy/Margaret discrepancy but does not
> mentiona ny
> >second marriage for Dorothy/Margaret. In addition, a history of the
> >Wrottesley family, published in 1903 as a supplement to the Genealogist
> >magazine, states that Richard Wrottesley "appears to have married whilst
> >under age" to Dorothy Sutton, making no mention of a previous marriage by
> >her.
> Richard Wrottesley was born in 1457, according to Pryce's pedigree in the
> GENEALOGIST on Capt. Mark Phillips' royal descent. This lends
> much weight
> to the theory of two Sutton sisters, Margaret (aka Dorothy)
> Sutton Musgrave
> and Dorothy Sutton Wrottesley. What are the exact references for the
> Wrottesley and Musgrave works you cited - I'm interested in
> learning further
> about both families.
> >There were at least 12 children from the Wrottesley/Sutton marriage. If
> >there were in fact 5 children from the Musgrave/Sutton marriage
> AND Richard
> >was under age when married, this would argue for a Margaret misnamed
> >Dorothy
> >and a separate Dorothy, not a Dorothy who married twice.
> Yes. Plus, if it was the same woman, she'd have given birth to
> 17 children.
> If we can discover that the Musgrave children and the
> Wrottesley children
> were born simultaneously, then that would be definitive proof of two
> different Sutton sisters.
> Unfortunately, I don't have approximate birthdates for Walter
> Wrottesley or
> Eleanor Wrottesley Long - the two children of Dorothy Sutton Wrottesley
> mentioned in the Pryce pedigree. According to HOP, Eleanor Wrottesley's
> first husband, Edmund Liversedge, of Frome Selwood, Somerset, died on 7
> Sept. 1508, and she married 2ndly, Sir Henry Long (born by 1487), by 1516.
> >All this is interesting but doesn't really address Leo's
> original question
> >about the mother of Dorothy Sutton. I have seen no source that says she
> >was
> >the daughter of the 1st wife and only one that suggests the
> possibility of
> >uncertainty about her mother.
> Thomas, 8th Lord Clifford's, third daughter was:
> "MAUD, married first Sir John Harington of Aldingham in
> Lancashire, son of
> Sir Thomas Harington of Homby and Brierly, killed at the battle
> of Wakefield
> in 1460; second, Sir Edmund Dudley; and third, Richard Wentworth of West
> Bretton, Yorkshire." He cites as a source, Whitaker's RICHMONDSHIRE.
> So, if Dorothy Sutton Wrottesley was the daughter of the above Maud
> Clifford, she had to have been born after 1461.
> Would the next step be trying to determine birthdates for the 12
> children of
> the Wrottesley/Sutton marriage?
> Many thanks again, John, for your very helpful post.
> Best regards, ---------Brad Verity
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