GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Archives

Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2004-04 > 1081163569


From: (Douglas Richardson)
Subject: Re: CP Addition: Richard Pole's 1st marriage to Alice Stradling
Date: 5 Apr 2004 04:12:49 -0700
References: <5cf47a19.0404011611.474a02b5@posting.google.com> <1f75cd994c.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk>


Dear Tim ~

My comments are interspersed below. DR

Tim Powys-Lybbe <> wrote in message news:<>...
> In message of 2 Apr, (Douglas Richardson) wrote:
>
> > Margaret married before November 1487 Richard Pole (or Poole), K.G.
> > (died 1504), of Ellesborough and Medmenham, Buckinghamshire, son and
> > heir of Geoffrey Pole, Knt., by his 1st wife, Edith Saint John.
>
> Let's take the small error first: Geoffrey Poole was not a knight. In
> Testamenta Vetusta, Vol I, p. 338, where an abstract of his will is
> printed, he is called esquire. This is confirmed by CP Vol XIV, p. 567.

Macnamara's book, Memorials of the Danvers Family (1895), pp. 192, 206
indicates that Sir Geoffrey Pole's widow, Bone Danvers, "appears in
two of the records of Magdalen College, Oxford (Corston 11 and 18), in
which she is described as widow of Sir Geoffrey Pole, and resigns, as
do her brothers then (1482) living, William and Henry, their rights in
the manor of Corston." If Mr. Macnamara has correctly transcribed the
two deeds in question, then it would appear that Geoffrey Pole was
knighted sometime between the date of his will (12 Oct. 1478) and his
death date (4 Jan. 1478/9). I might mention that the Henry Danvers
who joined Bone (Danvers) Pole in the Corston deeds is the same
individual who sued Bone's step-son, Richard Pole, in Chancery in 1485
regarding the wardship of Edward Stradling. Corston is a manor in the
parish of Hilmarton, Wiltshire.

The following four visitations also indicate that Geoffrey Pole was
knighted:

1. W. Harvey et al. Vis. of Oxford 1566, 1574, 1634 & 1574 (H.S.P. 5)
(1871): 187–188 (Danvers pedigree: "Bova [Danvers] wife to Sr Jefery
Joole of Buckingham.").

2. W. Harvey et al. Vis. of Bedfordshire 1566, 1582, 1634 & 1669
(H.S.P. 19) (1884): 51–54 (Saint John pedigree: "Edyth [Saint John)
maryed to Sr Gefferey Poole Knight").

3. T. Benolte et al. Vis. of Sussex 1530, 1633–4 (H.S.P. 53) (1905):
89 (Poole-Pole pedigree: "Sr Geffrey Poole knight. = Edith d. of Sr
John St John of Bletsho.").

4. T. Benolte et al. Peds. from the Vis. of Hampshire 1530, 1575, 1622
& 1634 (H.S.P. 64) (1913): 35–36 (Poole pedigree: "Sir Geffrey Pole
knight. = Edith d. of Oliuer St. John of Bletuesho").

A copy of the latter pedigree may be found on your own website at:

http://powys.org/

> Revisiting Testamenta Vetusta, his name is clearly spelt Poole and so
> are the surnames of his sons Richard and Henry. But this is only an
> abstract of Geoffrey's will so I turned to the official transcript, but
> not the original will of course, available on the London PRO site of
> Documents On Line:
> http://www.documentsonline.pro.gov.uk/
> Geoffrey is there spelt Galfridus Poole and the same is used for his
> sones later in the will. Though I did note that some scribe had written
> in the margin "Galfridi Pole".
>
> The most prominent member of that family was doubtless the cardinal,
> whom I was indeed educated to know as Cardinal Pole. So I was
> surprised to see in the book of the Oxfordshire Visitation of 1566 the
> following entry on page 96 for the east window of the Founders chamber
> of Maudelyn Coledge (sic) a description of the arms of the cardinal with
> over it:
>
> poole Cardanall
>
> Further this is the spelling used of the family in the various
> visitation records, Sussex 1530 & 1633-4, p. 89 and Bedfordshire of
> 1566, 1582 and 1634, p. 52.
>
> Finally I was intrigued to find in Smyth's "Lives of the Berkeleys" Vol
> II, p. 274, that the same spelling of "Poole" was still being used in
> the 1620s when Smyth wrote this, though he may just have been copying a
> document of 1556.
>
> My conclusion is that the almost universal practice of the time of this
> Poole family is that they spelt it thus. When and why the modern form
> of "Pole" came in I do not know.

The modern form of Pole was evidently in place before 1484. If you
check my post dated April 3rd regarding Sir Richard Pole's first
marriage to Alice Langford, you'll find that every single record I
transcribed for Sir Richard Pole in the period, 1484-1490, spelled his
surname Pole rather than Poole. If you desire to investigate the
matter for the pre-1484 period, I recommend you consult the various
sources cited in the well researched article on Geoffrey Pole which
appeared in the following journal:

National Library of Wales Journal, vol. 17, No. 3 (1972): 277–286.

In the meantime, your statement that the "almost universal practice"
of this family to spell the name Poole appears to be in error. This
is clearly not the case. If the records I transcribed in my post are
any indication, the family was predominantly known as Pole before
1484. Poole remained an alternative spelling, however, as you
indicate above in the window prepared for Cardinal Pole and also in
several of the visitations that I've cited.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

E-mail:

This thread: