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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2001-05 > 0991247749


From: "Ralph Turner" <>
Subject: RE: [DNA] flat noses
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 11:35:49 -0700
References: <2449F3F867FBD211936600C04F68569EA3C272@smhrimsx.mhri.med.umich.edu>
In-Reply-To: <2449F3F867FBD211936600C04F68569EA3C272@smhrimsx.mhri.med.umich.edu>


In all of these adaptations it must be understood that the organisms as individuals are not adapting to their surroundings. (Well they may be doing that too, but they are not changing their nose shape or their chest size certainly.) Rather there are random mutations that are occurring all of the time (but not in great numbers) in all populations and that when a better nose or chest occurrs from what might be considered a 'mistake' then that is retained and the 'mistake' is passed on and only over time will the local population show these characteristics. We need to recall this process constantly in order not to think of the adaptive mechanism as something that the individual is 'doing' consciously or uncounsciously. Meanwhile the rest of the population is suffering with the charactersitics that developed in a different environment, even to the point of extinction over time. And the process of DNA replication seems to show how this works.

Its something like a witness who says 'I saw the murderer stab the victim.' rather than:
'From where I stood it appeared that a man that looked like that one over there, stabbed another person who was wearing a red coat.' From another position, another lighting, another observer may have seen what appeared like something else. The first witness doesn't know if the knife blade was retractable, or if the scene was in a movie set. It makes for more complicated description but it is the only way to get to the truth.

I realized that you were giving an explanation for the nose theory that others had given. And I don't have any argument with it. But I immediately saw that it did not apply to Eskimos, who after all may live in the most extreme cold of all, or even to Mongols, who live in a fairly cold environment on the whole. If it didn't apply to them then I questioned (lightly) the theory. At least on the first go around. Perhaps there is a different theory that would encompass both observations. And there may be a lag in the adaptation. However I think the Eskimoes have been North long enough to adapt some to their extreme conditions. At one time I understood that they had a homogenous blood type. Recently I heard otherwise. But their contact with other people has changed drastically even during my lifetime.

RT
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

On 5/30/01 at 12:20 PM Bonner, Gregg wrote:

>The nose thing is not my theory - it is the one that I see most often used
>as the textbook case for evolutionary shaping of physically observable
>characteristics. The other common one is the expansion of the chest cavity
>among peoples who live at high altitude. You may bash either at your leisure
>- I will not be offended. And for those who say that the flat nose paradigm
>does not work to explain temperature-dependent nose shape, I say this: ask
>me again in 3.8 million years. I am not trying to prop up the theory, I am
>just giving "an" argument. Of course, it could be that there is some
>transcription factor or something that acts to make it so that people in
>cold climates can store and later utilize fat more efficiently, and the
>affect on nose shape is secondary, and completely coincidental, with no
>affect on its own.
>
>Gregg
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Vance Hawkins
>To:
>Sent: 5/30/01 10:13 AM
>Subject: Fw: [DNA] flat noses
>
>Why do Eskimos have flat noses like most Asians, and yet most American
>Indian's have very very big -- some long and slender -- noses?
>
>"Once upon a time there was a race of long slender nosed Siberians . .
>."they all left Asia for the promised land . . ."
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Ralph Turner <>
>To: <>
>Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 8:25 AM
>Subject: [DNA] flat noses
>
>
>: Flat noses. One would have to have another reason for the flat noses
>of Eskimoes and Mongolian people in northern and cold climates.
>:
>: RT
>:
>: *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
>:
>: On 5/30/01 at 3:03 AM Bonner, Gregg wrote:
>:
>: >Because if you are far north, and you go snowblind because you have
>the
>: >wrong face for filtering reflected light from snow, and you get eaten
>by a
>: >polar bear, that is a bad thing evolutionarily.
>: >
>: >I think the most common paradigm has to do with the flatness of the
>nose,
>: >and how there is a balance between the need to increase oxygen
>exchange
>: >(flatter) versus the need to heat the incoming air (pointier). For
>example,
>: >if your nose is too flat and you are in the cold, and you get
>pneumonia and
>: >die....Well, it is pretty hard to have kids much after you are dead,
>so
>: >again, bad in evolutionary terms.
>: >
>: >Gregg
>: >
>: >
>: >-----Original Message-----
>: >From: A. Devilliers [mailto:]
>: >Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 2:56 AM
>: >To:
>: >Subject: Re: [DNA] Seeking the Parents of Us All; features and
>: >intelligence
>: >
>: >
>: >Perhaps, but how does climate account for facial structure, size and
>shape
>: >of eye, etc.?
>: >
>: >----Original Message Follows----
>: >From: "Julia Kidd" <>
>: >...I think you will find the answer given by experts will be
>climate!...
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