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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2002-09 > 1031004574


From: "john flinn" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Two Paleolithic Y groups in Europe Before the Third/Neolithic
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 15:09:34 -0700
References: <F45PAltdX5sg3sU9grD00000275@hotmail.com>


Anne,
WOW!!! Thank you for all that analysis work.
John Flinn

----- Original Message -----
From: "Annie, The WritingTeacher" <>
To: <>
Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 11:05 AM
Subject: [DNA] Two Paleolithic Y groups in Europe Before the Third/Neolithic


>
> Interestingly, the article at www.sciencemag.org, Nov. 10, 2000 "The
Genetic
> Legacy of Paleolithic Home Sapiens Sapiens in Extant Europeans: A Y
> Chromosome Perspective," reports that around 70 % of European men today
are
> descended from one Middle Eastern population that arrived 25,000 years ago
> and went to Spain, largely represented by Eu 18, and another group,
> descended from Eu19, who came from Central Asia, 30,000 years ago and
> settled in the N. Balkans. They were called the Epi-Gravettian culture.
>
> After the end of the LGM, last Ice Age, the Eu 19 group from Central Asia
> left the Urals and migrated toward Central Europe, while the Eu 18 group
of
> Western Europeans from Spain/France migrated also toward Central Europe.
The
> two met near Czech....and mixed somewhat.
>
> However, today, there's still an imaginary boundary line separating W.
> European Eu 18 from Eastern European Eu19. Much later, in neolithic times,
> the farmers from Anatolia/Middle East representing Eur 4, a9, M89 (Eu 10
> from S. Iraq), and Eu 11 moved into Europe and settled in the Med and
> Balkans mostly, but can be found all over Europe today in smaller numbers,
> about 20% of the population of Europe today.
>
> The article states Eu4 is distinct, markead by M35, but also from the
Middle
> East. Eu 9 and 10 share the same common ancestor in Iraq--Eu9, North, and
Eu
> 10, South. Thus, the neolithic farmers settled in south and very little in
> Central Europe. Actually Central Europe is populated by a mixture of Eu 18
> from Spain and Eu 19 from Central Asia/Urals.
> Sixty percent of Hungarian and 56% of Polish men have Eu 19.
>
> Eighty-eight percent of Basque men have Eu 18, as do most of Italian and
> French men. So there's this imaginary line separating W. from E. Europe
with
> two different groups, one from the Middle East that's 25,000 years old,
and
> another from Central Asia in E. Europe, that's 30,000 years old.
> Interestingly, amost all European men, according to the Y chromosome
study,
> belong to only 10 lineages and most (80%) is of Upper Paleolithic origin
> with expansions across Europe only after the end of the last Ice Age
(LGM).
> A second population from the N. Balkans expanded all over Europe, but they
> still kept that imaginary line separating East from West. They were called
> the Epi-Gravettian population.
>
> It's almost as if a giant 30,000 year-old wall kept E. European men out of
> W. Europe and vice versa. There are more Y chromo "clans" than there are
> female mtDNA haplogroups. This is either because the Y mutates faster and
> replaces itself with new types, or....there were more women taken as
> "brides" during the Ice Ages, to Europe, or more men succombed to hunting
> accidents or fighting, and more women survived, or at least the mtDNA
> survived to outnumber the Y chromo clans.
>
> What I don't understand is that there is supposed to be 18 Eves and 10
Adams
> so to speaking, referring to mtDNA groups and Y chromo groups in the
world,
> but no all mtDNA groups have been found to date.
>
> I'm sure in parts of Asia there are more mtDNA groups to be discovered,
> except, according to Macaulay's tables, we've run throught he alphabet in
> mtDNA types from A to Z. What's next--numbers? Just like there are ancient
> mtDNA types that never survived to the present and don't fit into the A to
Z
> tables, there probably are more we haven't found yet, people who don't fit
> into the existing databases. Maybe they're in the Pacific Islands, Asia,
the
> Amazon rainforest, India, Australia, or elsewhere.
>
> In any case, does anyone know why mtDNA is said to be older than Y
> chromosomes? If mtDNA originated 170,000 years ago, and Y chromosomes
> originated only 60,000 years ago, what about all those people 80,000 years
> ago who left Africa for Yemen via the Southern route? (I believe the N.
> route was closed as anything N. of Ethiopia was a desert during that Ice
Age
> then. So the only route was Yemen to India to Malaysia.)
>
> Any interesting articles on this around?
>
> Anne
> http://annehart.tripod.com
>
>
>
>
>
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