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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2003-11 > 1068065035


From: David Faux <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Celtic haplogroups
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 12:43:57 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <000b01c3a3cf$9a0ce540$7920af3f@failte>


Respectfully, Mr. Tweedy, me thinks you have missed a key point.

You are correct in your assetion that R1b is the "Celtic" haplogroup - the saturation point of almost 100% being reached in some of the western counties of Ireland. What you did not note is that R1b is also found at a relatively high frequency in, for example, Norway - definitely not Celtic. Therefore we can expect that approximately 20% of Norwegian Vikings carried a R1b haplotype to the lands they invaded. Therefore a R1b haplotype in Ireland does not guarantee a Y chromosome Celtic heritage, only that the odds are in favour of this interpretation.

Take care Mr. Tweedy

Barra McCain <> wrote:
Respectfully.... Mr Tweedy wades into the muck...

Before any stones do be chunked my way, do keep in mind I am the messenger.

Alas, to my wretchedly poor brain, the Celtic Haplotype group is very
simple, Rb1. As I plough through the research documents, this is the
consensus... i.e. Celtic is simply Rb1, and the core of this would be the
Atlantic Modal Haplotype.

Keep in mind, to some people the word Celt is political However with me it
is not. A lot of this stew is one of semantics and paradigms.

Back several Light-Years ago when I was getting a degree (with honours) in
history some upstarts had said the large Celtic invasions never happened,
that Insular and Atlantic based Celtic people, culture, society, etc.,
'developed from the Proto-Celtic populations. At the time this was heresy,
but now we know from DNA research this is spot on the target. BTW... this
is also what the Romans believed in their day. Proto Celts to Celts... etc.
to Irish, Welsh, Cornish, etc.

While there was a movement of tribes and transfer of culture and language,
basically the indigenous Proto-Celtic became what we now know as Cymraeg and
Gaelic Celts.

So Rb1 is the 'Celtic' pattern. I am working from memory, but if my usige
beatha altered grey matter is sequencing correctly, I the certain loci are
important to the Atlantic Modal type.... i.e.

388...12
393...13
392...13
19....14
390...24
391...11

one mutation off this makes you AMH 1.15+

Be advised, the term Celt is also political. The guilty parties will, to
keep the blessed peace, be nameless here. TBut, there are some people that
froth at the mouth at the thought of a Celtic haplotype, preferring to keep
the term Celtic in the linguistics box. I consider this literally insane.
Flat world stuff.

'Celt' has always had an ethnic, folkway, genetic (blood lines), meaning
outside of linguistics, even to the Romans and Greeks it did. In any case
most Rb1 types had their ethno-genesis in their long Celtic speaking
epoch... so that pretty much settles it.


The poor Mr Tweedy


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