Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2003-11 > 1068065535

Subject: Re: [DNA] Celtic haplogroups
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 15:52:21 -0500 (EST)
References: <> <000b01c3a3cf$9a0ce540$7920af3f@failte>
In-Reply-To: <000b01c3a3cf$9a0ce540$7920af3f@failte>

"Mr. Tweedy" wrote:
> Alas, to my wretchedly poor brain, the Celtic Haplotype group is very
> simple, Rb1.

Three things. First, to avoid confusion, please note that the YCC
nomenclature system alternates letters and digits. There happens to
be a group called "R1b1", but I suspect Mr. Tweedy meant "R1b".

Second, please note that cultural/ethnic terms have to be used in the
proper context to be meaningful. As long as we confine the discussion
to the British Isles (and their outpost in Brittany), we can use the
term "Celtic" with fair confidence that we know what we mean, and that
others will understand what we mean. However, beware of trying to
extend this discussion elsewhere (such as Spain or Italy).

Third (and this is where the thread started), remember that the
converse of a true statement is not necessarily true. The truth that
Mr. Tweedy approximately expressed ("Celts in Britain are nearly all
R1b") cannot be turned around. We cannot say that R1b is nearly all
Celtic, either in Britain or elsewhere. That perversion of the truth
is apparently what OxAnc is selling the customers, and, as David said
earlier, it is infuriating.

> 388...12
> 393...13
> 392...13
> 19....14
> 390...24
> 391...11
> one mutation off this makes you AMH 1.15+

Maurice had a question about this. Being one step off the AMH does not
make you non-Celtic (nor does it make you Celtic). It's the other
way around: being Celtic in Britain means that you are almost surely
R1b, and very likely 1.15+. Note that the "1" in "1.15+" refers to
Haplogroup 1 (the old nomenclature, equivalent to R1b). The "15" is
just an arbitrary catalog number of that particular haplotype in a
long-since superseded list of haplotypes. The "+" means the collection
of all haplotypes that are within one step of that haplotype.

John Chandler

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