Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2003-11 > 1068118068

From: Patrick Guinness <>
Subject: [DNA] Celtic haplogroups / Turkey
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 11:27:48 +0000

At 5:26 pm -0600 5/11/03, Gary Rea wrote:
>"Gary Rea" <>
>Subject: [DNA] Celtic and Atlantic Modal Cluster
>According to this, anyone who is AMH 1.15+ is in the Atlantic Modal
>Cluster, and that is still considered to be "Celtic.":

The 'Celtic' haplogroup R1b3 is also found at the other end of
Europe, in Turkey.

In a recent paper (Cinnioglu et al.) by the Underhill / Stanford
group, 14% of Turks are also in R1b3, 76 / 523. But when you look at
their STRs, only 9 match the AMH at its 6 loci.

Turkey being a genetic crossroads, R1b3 may have originated or
arrived there, and some will say that e.g. the Galatians were
culturally Celtic. But the STRs within the Turkish R1b3 group give us
a better picture - most have DYS393*12, but in western Europe *13 is
more common.

If DYS393-in-R1b3 is so fixed, across millenia, then it is rather
pointless to expect it to mutate in family surname studies at the
same rate as other loci. The paper asserts a general mutation rate
of 0.0007 per locus per generation. Subjectively, I think this is too
low but it must be right for some loci.

According to the laws of probability, at some point the paper will be
found at -

otherwise look for -

Human Genetics

© Springer-Verlag 2003

Original Investigation

Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia
Cengiz Cinniolu1, 4, Roy King2, Toomas Kivisild3 (et al.)

Peter A. Underhill
Phone: +1-650-7235805
Fax: +1-650-7251534
Received: 13 June 2003 Accepted: 19 August 2003 Published online:
29 October 2003

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