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From: "Palden" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Celtic haplogroups
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 08:02:32 +1100
References: <BBCFF544.4AA2%starry@hhadvertising.com>


Dear Gentlemen,

Not to forget the Neolithic group found in Ireland and to lesser degree's in Scotland and the Anglo-Scottish border [Cumbria], well known area's of Irish colonisation.

HgG having been with the R1b in Ireland, etc, for 7000 years to the present. Thus I would imagine they qualify, being an important part of the Celtic admixture.

Neolithic man brought to Ireland and the Isle's in general, those Standing Stones, knotted and symmetrical designs carved in stone, the worship of the sun and stars, as seen via the various henge's. In Ireland the Neolithic tribes buried their dead in long barrows, and so the term arises as 'Long Barrow Man'.

These cultural remains are those which have been classically referred to as 'Celtic' in the Isles, from the Romans till today.

Their legacy is still strong in the north, as 1 in 5 native Ulster men are of direct Neolithic descent.

In Southern Ireland it is 1 in 20.
So we have a 7000 year history of inter-marriage with the descendants of the ancient aboriginal population.

By the time the Romans came to the 'Isles' and introduced the Greek word 'Keltoi' to the tribes, these good-folk had already been in contact for approx 5000 years.

As clarification is needed it would be too generalised to refer to R1b as being the sole Celtic haplogroup in the 'Isles' or more importantly Ireland where their numbers are strongest.

Further clarification to clearly represent historical events would need to be applied when referring to the aboriginal [R1b] population of the 'Isles', in contrast to the later Celtic Tribal populations of the 'Isles' [admixture: R1b+G=Celtic].

The Celtic Tribes/ancient Clans [our admixture again] of Ulster were the Scotii. Who migrated, giving their name to Scotland. Without try to sound contrite, the Celts did not arrive in the Isles until after 600 BCE, this is 4000 plus years after the first arrival of Neolithic G. In just so happened that the aboriginal people of the Isles and those of Europe were of the same stock, thus my R1b into R1b. Of course in Ireland a most Celtic country it was R1b into R1b+G.

This is further supported in the various Scottish Clan projects where we also find a representation of G's.

In Ireland the first firm record of Irish society is in the creative mark the early Neolithic Tribes made to the Irish country side.

In terms of Celtic migration in Ireland.

The Pretanii [Romans called them Pict's] were a Celtic tribe well-established before 500 BCE in Ulster, They were later called Cruithnigh. They made their way to Ireland from Scotland. Their descendants were called Dal Riada and later still Scotii, and this tribe controlled half of Ulster up until the 10 century. They migrated to Scotland in the 3rd century, and it is these Irish people whom the Highland and Harridan Clans look to as their ancestor's. Again this area is where the Hag is found, 1 in 5 of native clans.

When the Pertain came to Ireland they met a local Ulster population of R1b+G.

I am in agreement that R1b is Celtic, but not 'The' Celtic Haplography of the 'Isles'. As Celtic cultures were diverse with their own dialects, artistic developments and spiritual beliefs. Irish Celtic tribes are an admixture, as are the Scots.
To clarify terms I put forward.

Ancient Briton, Ancient Irish =R1b
Proto-Celtic= R1b+G
Celtic= R1b+[R1b+G]

I look forward to your reply.
Grant South













----- Original Message -----
From: Shane
To:
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 5:55 AM
Subject: Re: [DNA] Celtic haplogroups


On 11/6/03 12:01 PM, "Barra McCain" <> wrote:

let us not loose sight
> of the fact that these groups also share a genetic background.

I agree, sort of. It is at least 10,000 years between the post glacial
migration and the first descriptions of the Celtic culture. In that time we
would have seen a huge diversity of appearance that place.

Also, as the culture spread, it no doubt absorbed many other peoples-that's
the only way it could have covered so much area. Many of those people would
not have been R1b.


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