GENEALOGY-DNA-L ArchivesArchiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2003-11 > 1068921631
From: David Faux <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] DNA of the Isles
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 10:40:32 -0800 (PST)
Hello Grant and everyone:
Your reasoning is sound to me (especially since this is the approach I also use).
My conclusion as to the origin of my R1b haplotype is derived from all the sources you note in your posting - but most particularly the judicial use of the "Haplogroup Database".
The few markers used in the YSTR Database means that matches are, in my case, found all over the map from Spain to Poland. Useless. Both the Oxford Ancestors and the Ybase Databases are too small and too skewed (most of the participants are from the USA or Britain and it is not representative of the world at large). The same problem of "skewedness" applied to the REO database of FTDNA - largely thanks to the large number of surname studies represented there and thus large numbers of the same haplotypes. That leaves us with the Haplogroup Database at FTDNA which was collected scientifically, has representation from around the world, and includes the haplogroup of participants via SNP testing.
Using the Haplogroup Database it would appear that there is no reasonable chance that my English ancestors were Celtic from Britain. Of 12 markers, it takes 4 mutations from my haplotype to find one match from Wales. A single Scotland match and two from Ireland show up at 2 mutations. At the one mutation level (11 / 12 match) there is one from Shetland (a part of Scotland which was settled by the Norse). This profile is probably enough to rule out Celtic from the British Isles.
The most matches at each stage are from Iceland, followed by France and Norway. Curiously, at the three step mutation the largest number of matches is still found in Iceland, but add Shetland with 12 participants out of a sample of 38, and 4 Greenland Inuit (with European admixture).
The point, with some R1b haplotypes it may be fairly straightforward to interpret the results - if one uses the Haplogroup Database offered by FTDNA - which is composed of data collected by Dr. Michael Hammer of the University of Arizona.
Palden <> wrote:
Hi all !
We know that it has been very difficult to sub-divide the Angle, Jute and Saxon DNA from that of the Danish Vikings, thus pointing to a common genesis.
Similarly if R1b is found in northern Invader populations similarly it shares a common Celtic or Proto-Celtic genesis.
In terms of R1b we are talking about waves of R1b migration to the Isles.
The problem facing researchers is that families of R1b may show the same STR markers due to similar mutations happening in very distantly related families, in comparison these Y-DNA lineages will look closer than they actually are.
For genealogical purposes and ones family history, this is a model I use for my research
Dr. David K. Faux, P.O. Box 192, Seal Beach, CA, 90740, USA