Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2003-11 > 1070036311

Subject: Re: [DNA] R1b Celtic Matches
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 11:18:31 EST

In a message dated 11/27/03 9:44:31 PM Pacific Standard Time,

> It occurs (I am not the first to come up with this idea), that the answer
> may come when it becomes routine to divide R1b into the eight plus
> subcategories described by the YCC Consortium. For example we may find that R1b2 is
> virtually confined to Norway and adjacent areas plus the regions that in
> historic times Norwegians invaded. Lets hope that the opportunity to have this
> testing done by FTDNA will come soon - however, without world - wide databases to
> use as a basis for comparison the information will be hollow.

The general concept is appealing, and some cases do seem to pinpoint
locations a little bit better (e.g. R1b8 seems to be Basque). But this may be a case
of "Be careful what you wish for." The YCC chart is misleading, I think. The
R1b* category (that is, all R1b who don't have a more specific subgroup) is by
far the largest, but that's not evident on the tree-style diagram. The R1b1 to
R1b8 subgroups only apply to a small fraction of all R1b, and you'd probably
be running into fuzzier "best guesses" based on haplotypes. The more recent the
SNP, the more likely you are to find the same haplotype in different
haplogroups. So FTDNA could very well test all 8 subdivisions and report that you
didn't fit into any of them.

Dennis Garvey wrote about this earlier. His estimate was that 80% of R1b
Europeans don't fall into the eight categories in the old YCC tree (URL above).
He also has a link to a paper with the 2003 phylogenetic tree (the whole paper
is very good, by the way). The whole R1b section has been rearranged to
accommodate a recently discovered SNP. The outline-style nomenclature isn't
permanent, just the best they could devise at the time. A more stable way of referring
to the haplogroups would be by the most specific SNP, e.g. SRY-2627 for the
old R1b8 and the new R1b3f.

Be sure to follow the backward link in Dennis' message, too. If the URL is
split, it ends in 179.

Ann Turner - GENEALOGY-DNA List Administrator
Search or Browse the archives, Subscribe or Unsubscribe at

This thread: