GENEALOGY-DNA-L ArchivesArchiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2004-09 > 1096226469
From: "Mark MacDonald" <>
Subject: RE: [DNA] SNP Testing - An R1a Surprise
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 14:25:47 -0500
I respect your theories concerning the Norwegian and ultimate Central
Asian source of Somerled's paternal ancestry but your skepticism on the
ability to do precise genetic genealogy from a particular individual
with numerous known descendants is wholly offbase: the original
"doubting Thomas" has nothing on you. Must you place your hand in a
body cavity to believe that for at least this one human, the data and
historical genealogies match at 25 and 37 markers.
At least 40% of my Somerled signature group have been SNP tested by Mark
Jobling and/or Peter deKnijff of Leiden. 100% are 19 21 at YCA. At 25
markers 9 are still at the signature, 7 are one mutation and 6 are two
mutations( including one obvious double jump in one mutation from one
individual who SNP tests R1a and has a judicially recognized pedigree
to Somerled). We are asking the entire group to test at 37 markers to
get enough variation to sort cousins.
Just as importantly the existing mutations at 25 and 37 markers all
are consistent with the published modal values and permit us to
confidently assert that no mutations had appeared in either the
Clanranald or Keppoch chief lines before at least specific chiefs in
the mid 16th century. We also can, for example, distinguish between
Bohuntin line Keppochs and Achnacoichean line Keppochs. We can also
distinguish among Bornish,Glenaladale,and Milton line Clanranalds using
that published signature. Although each of these lines descend from
John, Lord of the Isles circa 1330 to 1380, the Sykes study which
independently concluded that my three chiefs, another Clan Donald chief,
the Mac Allister chief,and a large number of MacDougals are all of
common descent using the Oxford 10 markers further supports my Somerled
markers. I agree that to be precise to cover the potential for a
mutation in the generations Somerled,Ranald,Donald, Angus Mor, Angus Og,
and John from whom my samples of known pedigree descend, I need some R1a
MacDougalls and MacAllister samples(Dougal descended from Ranald:
Alister from Angus Mor).
If, after this summary you still wish to confidentially share this data
to further our common interest in this R1a line ( which sticks out in
the highlands and Hebrides like a very brightly defined beacon), I will
share the data. I wish my many R1bs were this simple.
Mark Mac Donald
Clan Donald Project Director
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2004 2:18 PM
Subject: Re: [DNA] SNP Testing - An R1a Surprise
Woah les moteurs Doug: Notice I used the expression "Somerled type".
No one can honestly say that they know the haplotype of an individual
who lived in 1100 AD. You can make inferences, but without locating the
man's grave and doing an analysis of bone powder, it is all guesswork.
I have no difficulty with the concept that the haplotype you carry may
be similar to that of Somerled - a very extensive study of 100 or more
haplotypes might help if you have at least three people who have a clear
genealogical trail to the man - otherwise it is a bit iffy.
My correspondent's haplotype is close enough that it could be explained
by say a link through Somerled's great great uncle's line - but the fact
is that the root stock may be the same. Thus if my correspondent is R1,
then all of us with similar haplotypes are going to need SNP testing.
We will know next week what his YCAIIa,b values are. These markers
appear to have high diagnostic potential. If they are 19, 23 (standard
Eastern European R1a) then you can relax. However if they are 19, 21
(my proposed Central Asian Norse type) then better get the credit cards
ready to smoke a few hundred dollars - an awful lot of us will be
needing SNP tests. The good news is that if he were R1, this haplogroup
is found most frequently in Central Asia, and may actually serve to more
stongly support my hypothesis. This could get very interesting. I hope
to set up M17 testing for him, but this will take a while. Stay tuned.
Dr. David K. Faux
P.O. Box 192
Seal Beach, CA 90630
-------------- Original message --------------
> > Ann:
> > This matter has nothing to do with my hypothesis
> about a migration to Scandanavia from Central Asia.
> This case has wide ranging implications.
> My correspondent's haplotype is "classic" R1a - the "Somerled type"
> as reflected in some members of the McDonald clan.
> > FTDNA has found him to be SRY10831.2+ which means he is not R1a
> >(however without testing M17 we don't know if he is R1a1
> Note, and whhhhheeeewwwww ....
> it turns out that Dr. Faux's testee is NOT a Somerled person
> after all. He certainly looks R1a-ish from Athey's calculator,
> but is off from the purported Somerled by 9 markers, which is
> a lot. In particular, Somerled is 8 at 459a, while most (80%)
> R1a are 9, and Somerled's 458 is 16, equally uncommon.
> Doug McDonald
> Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration
> Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more.
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