Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-04 > 1113277213

From: "Kiernan O'Rourke-Phipps" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Jewish/non-Jewish surname and Y-DNA results
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 20:40:13 -0700
In-Reply-To: <>

> From: ellen Levy <>
> Reply-To:
> Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 20:24:45 -0700 (PDT)
> To:
> Subject: Re: [DNA] Jewish/non-Jewish surname and Y-DNA results
> Resent-From:
> Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 21:24:51 -0600
> Let's try to stick to DNA & surname/genealogy issues
> here, OK? What points exactly, Kiernan, have I failed
> to address that you posed?
> I answered your questions - why R1b among Ashkenazim
> is of European origin (even quoted a DNA study here),
> why simply having a surname shared by Jews is fairly
> useless as an indicator of possible Jewish/non-Jewish
> genetic links, why it is more likely that Jews
> obtained their R1b ancestry from Europeans than vise
> versa, why Jews do not consider DNA evidence as
> "proof" of their ethnicity, etc..
> I'd appreciate you addressing my questions if you can,
> which were all related to DNA or genealogy-related
> investigations. I asked if you have DNA tested any
> Jewish Semlers. I asked WHY you thought you might
> have Jewish ancestry, particularly in light of the
> fact that there is no family history indicating such a
> connection. Simply because your ancestors came from
> Germany and have a surname shared with Jews? So do
> millions of non-Jewish Americans and Europeans. Yes,
> I certainly have heard a lot of "crackpot" claims
> regarding Jewish ancestry among non-Jews (and
> Jewish/Native American DNA links, etc, etc). Frankly,
> the list readers have been subjected to these claims
> repeatedly and a lot of them have no interest in the
> topic whatsoever. However, I chose to judge each
> claim on its merits, which is the courtesy I tried to
> extend to your inquiry.
> Finally, the most important question of all, related
> to your somewhat disturbing statement that being born
> Jewish is not "proof" of being Jewish: What is then
> "proof," in your book?
> Further, what "genetic claim" (that apparently
> ethnicity can not "prove") are you referring to? That
> Jews are actually descended from Jews?
> Ellen Coffman
> --- Kiernan O'Rourke-Phipps <>
> wrote:
>> Ellen,
>> Wow, that's some statement, but I don't see that
>> it's actually a reply to
>> the points I made. You seem to think I've got a
>> hidden agenda here.
>> Ultimately my point was that ethnicity on its own
>> neither proves nor
>> disproves a genetic claim--though the two may work
>> together to support each
>> other--but neither genetics nor ethnicity holds the
>> trump card--yet. That
>> may change in time. Your reply is to question my
>> motivations!
>>> What is your own motivation
>>> in this regard? What about the possibility of
>> Jewish
>>> ancestry particularly intrigues you (or is
>> desirable
>>> to you)?
>> Look, if I told you that my father's last name was
>> Calvino or Guistina, he
>> was R1b, and he lived on the border between Germany
>> and Italy but he said
>> that he and all his ancestors were German down to
>> their socks and always had
>> been, would you inquire into my deeper motivations
>> (as you have done) if I
>> dared to wonder if his family just might have been
>> Italian way back?
>> Anyway, I could turn your question around and ask
>> for your motivation in
>> inquiring into my motivations, but frankly I find
>> the questioning the
>> sincerity of partner in a discussion to be
>> disrespectful. Better left to
>> politicians.
>> I do understand that you have probably heard a whole
>> lot of crackpot
>> theories about Jewish ancestry
> ==============================
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