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From: (David Faux)
Subject: RE: [DNA] Middle Eastern ancestral markers on new Euro 1.0 test
Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:19:45 +0000


Ellen:

I was examining the detailed haplotype informaiton included with Brion et al.'s 2003 publication, "Insights Into Iberian Population Origins .............." when the point you are making was driven home.

Reference to the Penguin Atlas series shows the series of documented movements of peoples across Iberia in historic times. To look for stablity one needs to look for isolated populations. The Galacians and Basques appear to have experienced less population disruption from say the Moorish incursions than the peoples of southern Iberia (relatively low levels of E3b for example). What was striking was that the two areas of Northern Spain were predominently R1b (actually P*(xR1a, R1b18)) with a modal motif similar to that found in Ireland. Those from Valencia, however, bore little resemblance to their Northern counterparts and the reason seemed to be high diversity of haplotypes but with a modal 23 for DYS390. The latter suggests possible Germanic influences (Visigoths?).

It all gets very complicated, but I haven't given up on the possibility that the Y can tell the story of continuity or of migration - we have yet to adequately explpore p49a,f and minisatellies let alone high resolution haplotypes (7 or less microsatellite markers is typical in published studies).

David F.



-------------- Original message --------------

> I can't even pretend to understand the basic
> mathematical probabilities your discussing. Given
> enough time, I could probably reread it 100 times and
> begin to absorb it.
>
> However, I will redirect to some of the DNA studies I
> discussed in the last few days - in particular, the
> Basque and Etruscan studies. The Etruscan study
> indicates that the MtDNA lineages died out and were
> not continued in the subsequent Roman population. If
> this study is accurate, it indicates that ancient
> group may indeed have completely wiped out other
> populations. It is not what you would expect either -
> you would think the invading Romans would have taken
> some Etruscan wives and we would see some basic
> continuation of these lineages. And as for the
> Basque, their J lineages, which were very prevelant in
> the past, are practically non-existent now. And V,
> which didn't exist in multiple ancient Basque
> populations tested, does exist today in great
> frequency in Basque groups.
>
> I honestly don't know the statistical probabilities of
> these events, but the DNA evidence to date indicates
> that either DNA from previous ages has changed
> significantly in modern-day populations, or that
> lineages and haplogroups have died out (or become
> extremely scarce) either naturally or due to human
> events.
>
> I think this idea makes us rather uncomfortable - it
> means that there may not be that all important genetic
> link with groups from the past that we think (and
> hope) there is. It means that we may have wiped other
> human lineages off the face of this earth. This same
> issue has arisen over the Kennewick man debate and
> Native Americans. Just because this ancestor lived in
> the same vicinity as ancient Native American groups
> does not necessarily mean he is a direct ancestor or
> that he has any modern-day descendants. A Tuscan
> cannot necessarily go to see Etruscan art and
> artifacts in a museum and know there is that
> sought-for genetic connection between himself and
> those Etruscans.
>
> Ellen Coffman


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