Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2006-04 > 1145932232

From: "brian quinn" <>
Subject: RE: [DNA] irish origins and myths
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 12:30:32 +1000
In-Reply-To: <>


Criticism of Haak's study

"In this particular case, the reason may be because of a farmer input that
was subsequently diluted, assuming that the N1a haplotype is a marker of
spreading farmers, and that it was as rare in pre-Neolithic Europe as it is
today," Zilhao said.

But, he added, "I see nothing in the data that would necessarily carry the
exclusion of, for instance, the opposite hypothesis ... that (the N1a
marker) represents the incorporation of hunter-gatherer females in the
farming communities that are coming into Europe about 7,500 years ago, that
incorporation being in such small numbers that, eventually, it all but

Cro Magnon bones at Paglicci in Southern Italy were N* and date 23-25,000
years ago.

" Paglicci-25 has the following motifs: 17,025 AluI, 00073A,
11719G, and 12308A. Therefore, this sequence belongs to either
haplogroups HV or pre-HV, two haplogroups rare in general but
with a comparatively high frequencies among today's Near-
Easterners (35). Paglicci-12 shows the motifs 00073G, 10873C,
10238T, and AACC between nucleotide positions 10397 and
10400, which allows the classification of this sequence into the
macrohaplogroup N , containing haplogroups W, X, I, N1a, N1b,
N1c, and N*. Following the definition given in ref. 36, the
presence of a single mutation in 16,223 within HRVI suggests a
classification of Paglicci-12 into the haplogroup N*, which is
observed today in several samples from the Near East and, at
lower frequencies, in the Caucasus (35)."

Sorry for the long quote. However this shows that the ancestors of the
Neolithic Haak study people in Germany Austria showed the ancestral
Haplogroup from which Helena descended.

I don't know if this is just a sampling error- maybe the bones are only
preserved in caves- the last refuge of the Stone Age People whilst the
valleys were filling with Neolithic farmers with a descended mtdna(the old
random walk again and I mean the Markov Chain Monte Carlo or MCMC
statistical process)So folk in valleys are the mutated cousins of the
families in the caves. Well would be right if the cave dwellers are N and
the farmers are H or V or pre- HV etc.

There is no discontinuity of the people. The Mtdna just wanders on, but
shares a common root. The Helena in Ireland share a granny N that remained
in the Alp surrounds. They must have left home a very long time ago though.
Someone date it for me.


-----Original Message-----
From: ellen Levy [mailto:]
Sent: Tuesday, 25 April 2006 12:31 AM
Subject: Re: [DNA] irish origins and myths


I respectfully disagree. Saying the authentication of
results is somehow flawed because it doesn't seem to
fit the genetic picture of today's Basque population
is an easy criticism, but one without much merit.
Also, the same genetic distinctions between ancient
and modern populations was found not only with the
ancient Basques studies, but also with the Etruscan
study and the ancient Iberian study as well. Not to
mention the Cro-Magnon study (M*) and the study by
Haak on Neolithic N1c remains (there was a similar
study on Central Asian remains, also N1c)

All the factors you discribed = high frequency of
certain haplogroups, haplotypes, and blood groups -
can be highly effected by drift, natural selection and
endogamy. Not to mention in this case that the Basque
have the highest rate of consanguinity in Europe. And
the mtDNA genetic evidence from the ancient and modern
Basque populations makes it very clear that there was
not only significant genetic impact from Neolithic
groups, but also significant changes in the Basque
genetic makeup since the Neolithic (and undoubtedly,
then, since the Paleolithic)

But to deal with the authentication issue, according
to Alzualde's 2006 aDNA Basque study, to prevent
contamination, the following occurred: "Nine
individuals were replicated in an independent
laboratory with coinciding results in the case of
eight individuals, as the ninth was not replicated
satisfactorily due to inhibition problems. Likewise,
the cloning of an HVR-I fragment was undertaken in a
subsample of 10 individuals, and in all cases the
consensus sequence of the clones confirmed the result
obtained by means of direct sequencing involving the
PCR products."

All the ancient Basque studies deal with this
authentication issue because it is a big concern with
aDNA studies. I don't want to cite to each study's
authentication standards as it might put everyone to
sleep. But I don't think we can point the finger at
authentication or contamination issues simply because
we find the results disagreeable or in conflict with
our theories of ancestry.

Ellen Coffman

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