Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2006-09 > 1159109124

From: "Dora Smith" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] E3b and redheads
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 09:45:24 -0500
References: <BAY105-F141412CDA72AAC44C93CC0CC260@phx.gbl>

Original Balkans weren't Indo-Europeans, that was one of the refuges of the
peoples of Europe during the last ice age! They'd have mixed it up with
Indo-Europeans on their way northward.

Though I suppose it would be interesting to look at the notion that some
subset of the people who sheltered in the Balkans during the ice age
eventually sprouted the trait for blonde hair. If trait evolved around
2000 BC, since it certainly didn't begin to diffuse across Europe and the
southern Asian steppes earlier than that, it could have happened in
descendants of people who were in the Balkans or the Ukraine area during the
ice age as easily as the trait could have developed on the steppes north of
hte black sea among people of Middle Eastern or Asiatic descent.

Some weak correlation between haplogroup and blonde hair could well survive.
It would be interesting to look at it!

I'd really expect to find a clearer trail for blonde hair than for red hair.

There could also be two sorts of blonde hair, and two paths of evolution and
migration of this trait. Surely you've noticed that the Slavs tend to have
a less red, less golden, generally less colorful sort of blonde hair than
other western Indo-European peoples. The Slavs and Balts have a common
prehistory; I believe older than that of most western Indo-European groups.
To judge from their language, which either split from the other
Indo-European groups just after the Indo-Aryan groups did, or was
geographically located closer to the Indo-Aryan groups than the other
Indo-European groups.

Dora Smith
Austin, TX

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Bird" <>
To: <>
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 12:38 PM
Subject: Re: [DNA] E3b and redheads

> Cruciani has said that E3b1a2 = a Balkan origin. This is now, with his
> latest paper, approaching proof.
> Various archaeologists (Hoddinott, Webber) have said that the early
> historical inhabitants of the
> Balkans were the Thracians (7th millenium B.C. to about 350 A.D.).
> Therefore, many if not most of the E3b1a2 inhabitants of the Balkans were
> Thracians, as I have previously defined this group of people. I see no
> conflict in this observation.
> Herodotus (who was Greek of course) said Thracian warriors were large,
> powerfully built men, had red or blonde hair, grey or blue eyes, "delicate
> white" skin and a tendency to "put on flesh." That is the description to
> which I referred. How accurate that description was; who knows?
> I have stated that some of the redheads in Britain are possibly
> descendants
> of Thracian soldiers and have tested as E3b1a2. Not all of the redheads
> are
> Viking, and not all of the Thracians were redheads.
>>From: "R. & G. Stevens" <>
>>To: <>
>>Subject: Re: [DNA] E3b and redheads
>>Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 12:53:54 -0400
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Steven Bird" <>
>>To: <>
>>Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 12:36 PM
>>Subject: Re: [DNA] E3b and redheads
>> > However, the description is that of Herodotus, not my own.
>> >
>> > Steve
>>No, Herodotus never identified the ancient Thracians as belonging to any
>>y-haplogroup, let alone a single y-haplogroup, let alone E3b.
>>You can say that Herodotus said some Thracians had red hair, but you
>>use him to support your Thracians=E3b idea and the implication that
>>therefore many E3bs in ancient times had red hair.
>>Some of the Thracians may have been E3b. It doesn't seem likely all or
>>most of them were or that red hair was introduced to the Thracian genome
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