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From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Oppenheimer article on Celtic prehistory - on preRomanScandivians to England
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 12:09:33 -0600
References: <IGEOKAGLHNEKPCKPADIGAEOJMGAA.bbailey.lowedna@baileyconnection.com><01e901c6dffd$51cd0b30$640fa8c0@Villandra2><01f501c6e001$3f788550$640fa8c0@Villandra2>


And you forgot to mention that the "Danelaw" was in place already in the
time of Beowulf.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dora Smith" <>
To: <>
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: [DNA] Oppenheimer article on Celtic prehistory - on pre
RomanScandivians to England


> The article I just cited says this.
>
> "Apart from the Belgian connection in the south, my analysis of the
> genetic
> evidence also shows that there were major Scandinavian incursions into
> northern and eastern Britain, from Shetland to Anglia, during the
> Neolithic
> period and before the Romans. These are consistent with the intense
> cultural
> interchanges across the North sea during the Neolithic and bronze age.
> Early
> Anglian dialects, such as found in the old English saga Beowulf, owe much
> of
> their vocabulary to Scandinavian languages. This is consistent with the
> fact
> that Beowulf was set in Denmark and Sweden and that the cultural
> affiliations of the early Anglian kingdoms, such as found in the Sutton
> Hoo
> boat burial, derive from Scandinavia. "
>
> On that, I guess I will get his book.
>
> One thing - Beowulf dates to something like the 10th century AD.
> Moreover,
> Old English came from Saxon. Not pre-Roman cultural exchange.
> Oppenheimer clearly goes to far extremes trying to project current reality
> into history. Here he is arguing that the Saxon settlement of England
> had
> little impact on Britain's history. Everyone we need to be concerned
> about in England was there when God created Adam, or atleast, he seems to
> merely fail to put it that way. In his efforts, he comes across as as
> confused as those who think Brits are "The Celts".
>
> It sounds like he intersperses valuable actual information here and there.
>
> I see that Oppenheimer is at Oxford. No surprise there. The upper crust
> of
> the British intelligensia have a vituperative style of argument that
> seriously tends to bypass concern with reality. Its key point appears
> to
> be to say outrageous but intesting sounding things, on interesting topics,
> in the strongest terms possible, and shoot down other people.
>
> Teh theory of transpermia, that life evolved in outerspace and was brought
> to earth by asteroids, is an example of this style. Its proponents,
> from
> Oxford, Cambridge, and Cardiff University, are the life of British upper
> class parties and conferences with that idea. There is little concern
> with why life should not have evolved on Earth, nor of why on any
> particular
> planet in the universe it would be more likley to have been transported
> through the cold depths of space than to be indigenous. Since life is so
> likely to develop in the right circumstances that it could even develop in
> outer space, can it only have developed once, and is outer space a
> friendlier environment for it than the home planet!
>
> Maybe on second thought I'd better try to find out how and if his data
> supports a sizable pre-Roman scandinavian incursion into Britain before I
> invest money and scarce bookshelf space in his book.
>
> People are right on with the possibility that the Romans brought some of
> that DNA, and I believe that actually the Norse and Danes were major
> contributors. Not to mention that the Saxons came from southern
> Scandinavia.
>
> Dora Smith
> Austin, TX
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dora Smith" <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 12:17 PM
> Subject: [DNA] Oppenheimer article on Celtic prehistory and more
> questionsabout his new book
>
>
>> Someone posted a link to this article by Oppenheimer to a British history
>> list. People here may be interested in it.
>>
>> http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/article_details.php?id=7817
>>
>> I don't agree with everything he says. That there was life in Europe
>> before the Celts and Celtic history has been way oversimplified does not
>> mean there were no actual Celts, nor that an Indo-European migration did
>> not
>> bring their languages to Europe, and I find the evidence overwhelming
>> that
>> a
>> probably not genetically overwhelming set of Indo-European migrations
>> that
>> are probably partially concealed behind their tendency to carry Neolithic
>> Middle Eastern haplogroups, did bring Indo-European languages to Europe.
>>
>> However, Oppenheimer makes critically important points that there was
>> life
>> in Europe before a small group of Scythian and Cimmerian aristocrats, who
>> he
>> himself may think never existed, took control of the tribes of central
>> Europe between 800 and 600 BCE, and also that the people we now call "The
>> Celts" were not "The Celts", but a mixture of preexisting peoples and
>> already advanced cultures, and later migrations.
>>
>> I am concerned that his new book that someone mentioned on this list
>> might
>> tell me little that I already know. I know for instance about teh LaTene
>> culture of Central Europe. Does the new book do an actual historical
>> and
>> haplogroup analysis of the contributions of the different migrations into
>> Britain to its history and its current makeup? If he doesn't want to
>> think
>> there were Indo-Europeans, maybe he neglects or denies much of the rest
>> of
>> history as well.
>>
>> Is his entire book about what did not happen, or does it present actual
>> information about who the people of Britain are?
>>
>> Yours,
>> Dora Smith
>> Austin, TX
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
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>
>
>
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