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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2006-09 > 1159133114


From: "A DesCartes" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Cruciani 2006 paper on E3b - Balkans = alpha cluster
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 17:25:14 -0400
References: <000e01c6dfec$a1bb2430$6400a8c0@Ken1><BAY105-F976F29A19D2E85CB9A071CC270@phx.gbl>
In-Reply-To: <BAY105-F976F29A19D2E85CB9A071CC270@phx.gbl>


Listen, I know you want confirmation that you are of Thracian extraction and
that it somehow has to link to Roman era movements...It is entirely possible
this could be the case. There is no way at present to confirm this
unfortunately, and there are a lot of other possibilities. I would not
fixate to an unhealthy extent, at this point.

You continuously insist on the baseline requirement that this DNA type was
present in the Isles by a given date, long ago. You would first need to
eliminate the possibility that a `break` occurred by testing others of that
line who diverged from yours in the 17th century to confirm your dating of
the Haplotype in that locale.

Secondly, the study you cite seems to be relevant only as pertains to the
difference between *African origin* E3b and *European/MidEast origin* E3b.
I do not see it claiming to distinguish between any other Mediterannean,
Jewish, Mid-Eastern etc.. source of E3b- it would seemingly at the
most allow you to comfortably assert that your type is not likely to be of
the African variety, with the downside being that this is probably the case
of most European or Eastern form of E3b from any of those many and varied
locales.

E3b would be common in my estimation among mediterannean sailors, who
visited the british isles in antiquity for Tin
http://www.pznow.co.uk/historic1/tin.html beginning with the Phoenicians
(lots of E3b), the Greeks, the Roman merchant fleet, Jewish merchants,
Byzantines...not to even mention the trade that exploded with the Genoese
and Venecian fleets. Also, any ship flying any flag may have `pressed` or
voluntarily taken aboard a sailor at any Med. port, irregardless of the
nationality of the prospective deckhand. The British Navy was absolutely
notorious for grabbing anyone they could force onto their ships, even going
so far as to get bum`s drunk and then kidnap them while they slept it of
below deck.

``The English navy had no prejudice where their seamen came from, what
language they spoke or what country they owed their allegiance to. They all
served as a "Jolly Tar". ``The press gang goes back in English history to at
least the 11th century, if not before.`` ``Many foreigners volunteered for
service in the Royal Navy, but others were pressed. Americans made up the
largest segment of foreign serving seamen, followed by Scandinavians,
Italians, and Africans``
http://home.gci.net/~stall/seaman1.html

I`m not suggesting that this is the only means of getting an E3b into
England, but there are undoubtedly E3b haplotypes that came just this way,
and many other ways..so I wouldn't get too hung up on `Thracians` until
future genetic archaeological findings lead convincingly in that direction.


On 9/24/06, Steven Bird <> wrote:
>
> Here is a relevant section of Cruciani's 2006 paper concerning new
> divisions
> of E3b:
>
> [BEGIN QUOTED SECTION]
>
> *Congruence between microsatellite clusters and haplogroups/paragroups*
>
> There is a strong correspondence between the microsatellite and UEP
> findings. Genetic differentiation among UEP-defined groups of
> microsatellite-haplotypes is quite high (Rst = 0.59; P<10-3), and very
> similar to that, discussed above, obtained by the grouping of the
> haplotypes
> into clusters. We also explored the correspondence between the two types
> of
> markers at a geographical level. There is a high and significant
> correlation
> observed between pairwise binary-haplogroup-based and
> microsatellite-haplotype-based distances among nine geographic regions (r
> =
> 0.91 ; P< 10-3). The two-dimensional plots from MDS show similar clusters
> of
> populations (Fig. 3), with slight differences possibly due to differential
> sensitivity of Öst and Rst to different mutational processes.
>
> North-western Africa, eastern Africa and the Balkans are well separated
> from
> each other and also from the central cluster in bothdiagrams. The
> differences are explained to a large extent by: the haplotypes associated
> with paragroup E-M78* (predominantly observed in north-western Africa),
> haplogroup E-V32 (found almost exclusively in eastern Africa) and
> haplogroup
> E-V13 (the only subset of E-M78 observed in the Balkans). E-V13 is also
> commonly found in the populations of the central cluster, where, however,
> other E-M78 sub-haplogroups are also present.
>
> [END QUOTED SECTION]
>
> It appears from this research that the E3b1a2 (the so-called '"alpha"
> cluster of E3b) originated in the Balkans and that the V13 mutation is
> definitive for that cluster, even if it is not yet at the "end" of the
> twig.
> If you have V13, you're alpha cluster. If you're alpha cluster, your male
>
> ancestor originated in the Balkans.
>
> My male ancestor was found in England prior to 1639. He probably was born
> about 1600. We have proved that his Y DNA was also E3b1a2. My research
> questions are therefore focusing on exactly HOW his line got to Britain
> before 1600. With the Wright and Hobart families, also alpha cluster, and
> provable in England prior to 1425, the window of opportunity narrows a bit
> more. (The Birds are intermarried with these other two families in early
> New England. It's not likely to be a coincidence, since these early
> settlers traveled and settled together for several generations.
>
> So two families descended from Balkan males find themselves in England in
> 1425, as members of the landed gentry. How did they get there????
>
> Steve Bird
>
>
>
>
>
> Steve
>
>
>
>
>
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