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From: "Dora Smith" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] E3b - out of Africa not Europe
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2006 20:00:35 -0500
References: <BAY105-F3605A7591028E739EB1E7BCC270@phx.gbl>


I believe I actually confused E3b with I1b.

Yours,
Dora Smith
Austin, TX

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Bird" <>
To: <>
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 12:15 PM
Subject: [DNA] E3b - out of Africa not Europe


> Dora,
>
> Earlier, you wrote:
>
>>
>>Original Balkans weren't Indo-Europeans, that was one of the refuges of
>>the
>>peoples of Europe during the last ice age! They'd have mixed it up with
>>Indo-Europeans on their way northward.
>>
>>Though I suppose it would be interesting to look at the notion that some
>>subset of the people who sheltered in the Balkans during the ice age
>>eventually sprouted the trait for blonde hair.
>
>
> Go to this webpage:
>
> http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v74n5/40866/40866.web.pdf#search=%22cruciani%202004%20E3b%22
>
> You'll find an on-line PDF copy of Cruciani's ground-breaking 2004 paper,
> which effectively defined E3b as having four clusters (alpha, bet, gamma,
> delta). It also traced the movement of haplogroup E3b(alpha) out of
> Africa
> to the Balkans. E3b(beta) is associated with northwest Africa and E3b
> (delta) is associated with northeastern African populations (Somali in
> particular). All of the E3b subclades came out of Africa originally,
> according to the genetic evidence. It is not found by Cruciani, et al,
> that
> they migrated from Europe.
>
> There are other Balkan clades that did migrate from Europe, but during
> later
> historical periods. These would include some Celts (including the
> Galatians), many of the eastern Black Sea tribes (Cimmerians/Sarmatians,
> etc.), and certainly many Slavic peoples, especially after 400 A.D.
>
> As I previously stated, I believe that the E3b(alpha) subclade may be
> treated as congruent with the indigeneous people of the Balkans. Based on
> recent archaeological finds in the Balkans, Christopher Webber has stated
> in
> his book "The Thracians" (in 2001) that the Thracians occupied the Balkan
> peninsula (essentially, all of it) in the 7th millenium, B.C., or about
> 9,000 years ago. To me that is the same as saying that they were the
> original Neolithic settlers. They were later pushed to the north and east
> by other groups entering the region, particularly the early Greeks and the
> Illyrians.
>
> Dienekes Pontikos stated on his blog in August 2005:
>
> [Begin Quote]
>
> We observe the two main "contrasts" in the data between "coastal" J2/R1b
> and
> "continental" I1b and between "Neolithic" E3b and "Slavic" R1a (*)
>
> Several conclusions can be drawn.
>
> The spread of the Neolithic economy into continental Europe involved E3b
> bearers in a riverine expansion whose northern expression is associated
> with
> the Linearbandkeramik. This does not mean that E3b was the only haplogroup
> associated with these early European farmers, only that it definitely
> seems
> to correlate better with this movement compared to the other Neolithic
> haplogroup (J2).
>
> The early diffusion of E3b occurred over a haplogroup I Paleolithic
> background. It is likely that as groups moved northward the frequency of
> haplogroup E3b abated, and this is in fact shown in the frequency
> distribution. This movement is probably associated with the narrow-faced
> Danubian Mediterranean racial types. [N.B. - this would appear to
> correspond exactly with the Getic/Dacian tribe, which was the northernmost
> Thracian tribe according to Webber.]
>
> This native European population later received an influx of R1a speakers;
> the frequency of R1a is correlated with latitude. This led to a decrease
> of
> the native component in favor of the foreign R1a component. [N.B. -
> Bulgars
> and Slavs in the 400 A.D. and later periods.]
>
> The frequency of haplogroup J2 was established by three movements: (i) the
> initial arrival of J2 from Asia Minor; this did not significantly
> penetrate
> into the Western Balkans; (ii) the initial dispersal of J2 into Italy and
> further west, and around the Black Sea in pre-Greek times, which may be
> associated with the arrival of gracile Mediterranean racial types into the
> Ukraine; (iii) the latter dispersal of additional J2 as a result of Greek
> colonization.
>
> [end of Dienekes' quote]
>
> I haven't seen any published archaeological or genetic evidence (yet)
> showing any identification of settlers prior to the Neolithic. So absent
> this evidence, the Thracian/Dacian tribes would appear to be the
> ''indigenous" people of the Balkans. Maybe someone on this list knows of
> evidence to the contrary and can provide a reference?
>
> Steve
>
>
>
>
>
> No, they were the tribe known as the Getai and were described by
> contemporary writers as blond. See earlier posts.
>
> Steve
>
>
>
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