Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2006-09 > 1159155052

From: "Peter A. Kincaid" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Celts descended from Spanish fishermen, study finds
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 00:30:52 -0300
References: <>

----- Original Message -----
From: "ellen Levy" <>
To: <>
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 3:08 PM
Subject: Re: [DNA] Celts descended from Spanish fishermen, study finds

> Peter:
> Can you state what that "archaeological point of view"
> is?

There's a loaded question. ;-) The context here proposed
is that a population from the east (as in outside Europe)
expanded to dominate the west of Europe where in places
like remote Ireland it almost eliminated any other haplogroup.
It was suggested that this occurred in the late Neolithic/Early
Bronze Age. My comments included that from an
archaeological point of view I don't see anything to support
this as there is "continuity of settlement" even when intrusive
elements are introduced. Given the time frame suggested the
intrusive element at the time was the bell beaker/round barrow
cultural spread. These have been tied back to the lower
Rhine delta and I don't think anyone is suggesting that
a population from there displaced indigenous populations
in the rest of Europe in the late Neolithic.

After all, from a DNA perspective are people not
associating S21+ with the lower Rhine area dating back to
the LGM. So if the S21+ were not over run and said to
not be in significant numbers in Iberia, etc. how can
one propose that the western indigenous population was
replaced from the east in the Neolithic? You'd have to have
the R1bs coming from north of the Black Sea area back in the
Mesolithic Age but somehow the S21+ part of it decided
by instinct to head for Denmark/Northern Germany but then
decide "not" to take part in migrations that may be
associated with the bell beaker spread into Iberia.

What about M222+? It is also said to go back to
about the LGM. Did all the R1bs heading west from
the Black Sea area in the Neolithic decide by instinct
to separate out the M222+ and send them off to Ireland?
It seems to me that R1b had to be well planted in
western Europe back to the LGM to account for these
concentrations of unique SNPs.



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