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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2006-09 > 1159193204


From: "Peter A. Kincaid" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Celts descended from Spanish fishermen, study finds
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 11:06:44 -0300
References: <a06110407c1387adc2f1f@[216.187.1.203]><004d01c6dddc$4321a5a0$640fa8c0@Villandra2><CB03CFEC-0EE8-4D4C-8568-9E068AA982C1@vizachero.com><007401c6dde1$7b2b6760$640fa8c0@Villandra2><003901c6df1b$61e69410$6401a8c0@Richard><003001c6dfe3$5671b2e0$640fa8c0@Villandra2><000601c6dfec$3ba87710$6401a8c0@Richard><002301c6dfef$3f46f330$6400a8c0@Ken1><006001c6dff1$f39f65e0$6401a8c0@Richard><002a01c6e001$64eb5010$10139a8e@PeterAKincaid><000e01c6e017$c1334470$6401a8c0@Richard>


> Modern clinal distribution of various y-haplogroups may correspond to
> their
> prehistoric and ancient distribution but just as well may not.
>
> Saying, "Look, there is a lot of R1b over here!" is not exactly evidence
> that R1b has always been there. Likewise, saying, "There's not much of
> that
> y-haplogroup there!" is not evidence that that has always been the case.


It is not that I don't agree with some of your thoughts on
this. I just see it as a big hurdle to overcome to say that
R1b was not the indigenous population of western
Europe. Let us take Ireland as an example. R1b almost
completely dominates this remote corner of Europe
which, as an island, would be more immune to
subsequent mass migrations and had to be settled since
the LGM.

Now what is being proposed is that a haplogroup came
from the east to dominate in Ireland. How can this come
about seeing that the east is more diversified than the
west. What scenario could have a tribe of R1bs to
remain separated from the R1as, I1a, etc. so as to
sweep into Ireland 90%+ pure. Surely along the way
there would have been a merging of haplogroups so
that what would have arrived would have been a good mix
of eastern haplogroups. What evidence is there that some
sort of disease attacked all the haplogroups but R1b in this
newcomer mix so that R1b could end up dominating as it
does in this remote place. This also had to happen at the same
time in other areas of western Europe to account for
their large percentage of R1b. Furthermore, this disease
had to be selective in the Basque area where it picked on
some of the other haplogroups more than it did in other adjacent
areas in France and Spain. I think the odds are
way to great for this.

Thus, to explain Ireland one would have to say that
by chance only a couple of R1bs went there to found
the R1b population. Then this almost pure R1b
tribe had to to invade Scotland, Wales, Cornwall,
Spain, Portugal, etc. to dramtically boost their mixed
haplogroup population to make them also so strong in R1b.
Otherwise these other areas would by chance had
a similar R1b founder effect. What are the odds of this.
The archaeological evidence is actually for migrations
the other way (ie. from Iberia, etc. to Ireland). Futhermore
this took place since the LGM so from that time period
the handful of R1b founders in Ireland had to far exceed
the breeding capacity of other areas of western Europe
in order for it to be large enough to displace the populations
in western Europe which seemed to had better weapon
technology, etc.

These are strong hurdles to overcome especially
when it is more obvious that R1b could have
started in western Europe and spread east to
places like the Middle East (via Romans, Crusaders),
Russia (via Vikings, Teutonic knights, etc.). It seems
to me that if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck,
breeds like a duck, migrates like a duck - its a duck.
It is not just a matter of a lot of R1b here and not
there.

Peter


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