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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2006-09 > 1159223669


From: "R. & G. Stevens" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Celts descended from Spanish fishermen, study finds
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 18:34:29 -0400
References: <a06110407c1387adc2f1f@[216.187.1.203]><004d01c6dddc$4321a5a0$640fa8c0@Villandra2><CB03CFEC-0EE8-4D4C-8568-9E068AA982C1@vizachero.com><007401c6dde1$7b2b6760$640fa8c0@Villandra2><003901c6df1b$61e69410$6401a8c0@Richard><003001c6dfe3$5671b2e0$640fa8c0@Villandra2><000601c6dfec$3ba87710$6401a8c0@Richard><002301c6dfef$3f46f330$6400a8c0@Ken1><006001c6dff1$f39f65e0$6401a8c0@Richard><002a01c6e001$64eb5010$10139a8e@PeterAKincaid><000e01c6e017$c1334470$6401a8c0@Richard><005401c6e0ac$20212e40$1e139a8e@PeterAKincaid>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter A. Kincaid" <>
To: <>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 10:06 AM
Subject: Re: [DNA] Celts descended from Spanish fishermen, study finds



> It is not that I don't agree with some of your thoughts on
> this. I just see it as a big hurdle to overcome to say that
> R1b was not the indigenous population of western
> Europe. Let us take Ireland as an example. R1b almost
> completely dominates this remote corner of Europe
> which, as an island, would be more immune to
> subsequent mass migrations and had to be settled since
> the LGM.
>
> Now what is being proposed is that a haplogroup came
> from the east to dominate in Ireland. How can this come
> about seeing that the east is more diversified than the
> west. What scenario could have a tribe of R1bs to
> remain separated from the R1as, I1a, etc. so as to
> sweep into Ireland 90%+ pure. Surely along the way
> there would have been a merging of haplogroups so
> that what would have arrived would have been a good mix
> of eastern haplogroups. What evidence is there that some
> sort of disease attacked all the haplogroups but R1b in this
> newcomer mix so that R1b could end up dominating as it
> does in this remote place. This also had to happen at the same
> time in other areas of western Europe to account for
> their large percentage of R1b. Furthermore, this disease
> had to be selective in the Basque area where it picked on
> some of the other haplogroups more than it did in other adjacent
> areas in France and Spain. I think the odds are
> way to great for this.
_________________________________________________________________________

That's a lot to answer. I see no need to posit some pestilence that spared
only R1bs, however.

Why is it difficult to imagine a tribe or group of tribes in the Neolithic
Period or early Bronze Age whose males belonged almost exclusively to a
single y-haplogroup? That doesn't seem a great stretch to me. Northern
Europe was relatively sparsely populated at that time. The virtually
unimpeded movement of tribal groups across the European Plain to various
points on the Atlantic and North Sea coasts is also easy to imagine.

The population of Ireland might have been relatively small and easily
subjugated/replaced by the newcomers. It is a fact that Irish mtDNA has been
shown to bear a much closer resemblance to Central European mtDNA than its
y-dna does to its Central European counterparts. So who migrated into
Ireland, males or females? Are we to imagine the "indigenous" R1bs
benefitting from an invasion of continental European women? Or is it
possible, as Irish legend relates, that there were a number of warlike,
mostly male incursions into Ireland, incursions that left the native female
population in place but greatly reduced the number of native males?

It is not difficult at all to imagine tribes of R1bs moving into a
relatively sparsely populated Neolithic or Bronze Age Western Europe,
subjugating and possibly eliminating most of the indigenous males, sparing
the females, settling in and very successfully reproducing themselves.

We know that R1b becomes more diverse - and arguably older - as one travels
east across Europe to the Ural-Volga region. It is believed that R1b arose
in Central Asia, where it is still found to some extent and where many of
its closest non-R1b genetic cousins still live.

The Uyghurs of northwestern China claim descent from the Indo-European
Tocharians, some of whose ancient mummies have been found in the Takla Makan
desert in Uyghur country. The Uyghurs have a high proportion of R1b.

Rich


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