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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2006-09 > 1159232828


From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Celts descended from Spanish fishermen, study finds
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 19:07:08 -0600
References: <01b901c6e102$a334f9a0$6401a8c0@Precision360>


Well, which was named for which, the Baltic Sea named for the speakers of
Baltic branch of IndoEuropean, or vice versa. There were people living all
around the east end of the "East Sea" as I have seen it called on some maps
before the IndoEuropean speakers arrived. They were not all Finns. There
is a clear bifurcation in N3 at the Estonian/Latvian border, with the folks
south of that line and even stretching back along the north shore of Poland
having a variety of N3 which is different than that of the Estonians, Finns,
Saami. If databases treated that part of Europe better, maybe a sense for
how old the split is between the two branches of European N3 could be made.

The peoples having a lot of this southern variety of N3 probably included
the historic Prussians. My point is just that there was a genetically
identifiable people there (Baltic people) before the arrival of R1a and the
IndoEuropean languages (which may or may not have arrived together) and I
suspect these people were heavily N3-southern variety, and my guess is that
the Indo-European dialect taken up by those folks was named "Baltic" after
the earlier name of the region and peoples? Maybe someone on the list knows
the sequence of these nomenclatures.

Ken

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Mayka" <>
To: <>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 6:28 PM
Subject: Re: [DNA] Celts descended from Spanish fishermen, study finds


>> From:
>> [mailto:] On Behalf Of Ken Nordtvedt
>> Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 7:05 PM
>> So you think the N3 got into the Balts at a late date? I suspect the
> Balts
>> were N3 almost exclusively before the Slavic expansion out of
>> the Pripet marshes.
>
> I knew someone would misunderstand me! I should have been more explicit.
>
> Terms like 'Slav', 'Balt', and 'Celt' are fundamentally linguistic terms,
> referring to language speakers. Thus, Balts speak languages in the Baltic
> family, a branch of Indo-European which split apart from Slavic long after
> Italic, Celtic, and Germanic had left the 'nest'. I see every reason to
> think that the Balts, like the Slavs, were originally almost exclusively
> R1a.
>
> When the Balts arrived on the eastern coast of the Baltic Sea, however,
> they
> met Finnic peoples speaking Finnic languages. These peoples were probably
> mostly of haplogroup N. By whatever means, the Baltic (i.e.,
> Indo-European)
> languages won out in modern-day Lithuania and Latvia, though Livonian is
> still reportedly spoken fluently by about 10 people:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livonian_language
>
> In modern-day Lithuania and Latvia, R1a and N are roughly even at about
> 40%.
>
>
>
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