Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2006-09 > 1159412992

From: "Dora Smith" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Celts descended from Spanish fishermen, study finds
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 22:09:52 -0500
References: <00fc01c6e047$b61272c0$6401a8c0@Precision360>

Well, it isn't proven that the Indo-European languages completely eradicated
earlier languages. How did Indo-European languages get to differ from each
other in such systematic ways?

In modern Indo-European "migration", languages have tended to become a
mixture of old and new vocabulary, as the merger of Saxon and French to make
English, and the merger of the Celtic and Roman languages to make French.
Spanish contains large numbers of both Latin and Germanic words.

The original theory of Indo-European language spread was taht as the groups
carrying the languages diverged at different points in time their languages
evolved in separate directions.

But I think it is more realistic to think that Indo-European language
families relate to the languages spoken by the peoples the Indo-Europeans
invaded and ruled. The original Indo-European homeland must itself have
been large and contained a variety of mixtures of people. That too would
explain a historical spatial pattern of different language development among
Indo-European peoples.

As for the last point, I quite agree. It's amazing how the languages of
India and England are clearly descended from a common language without ever
having come closer than several thousand miles from each other!

Dora Smith
Austin, TX

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Mayka" <>
To: <>
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 9:10 PM
Subject: Re: [DNA] Celts descended from Spanish fishermen, study finds

>> From:
>> [mailto:] On Behalf Of R. & G. Stevens
>> What elites imposed Indo-European languages in Western Europe?
> This is the great unsolved mystery. Indeed, it's the "elephant in the
> living room" in this debate.
> This mailing list has offered two general approaches to the issue:
> 1) Large population replacement. The claim is that one language family
> cannot possibly have swept across an entire continent, devouring almost
> everything in its path, over a short period of a few thousand years,
> without
> large population replacement, which would leave a very large and obvious
> genetic footprint. In western Europe, only R1b and perhaps I1a meet this
> criterion. Hence, either all of I1a comes from Indo-European newcomers,
> or
> at least a large part of R1b does so. In either case, the question then
> becomes: What were the predominant yDNA haplogroups of Europe prior to
> the
> arrival of Indo-European?
> 2) Elite dominance of some kind--military, administrative, economic,
> commercial, etc. There is no doubt that elite dominance has often changed
> an entire people's language. Besides the obvious examples of Hungarian
> and
> Turkish, there is the more subtle but more ubiquitous case of dialect
> suppression, in which the dialect of the elite (e.g., the nation's capital
> city) becomes the 'standard language', thereby dominating, suppressing,
> and
> eventually extinguishing regional dialects.
> With respect to Indo-European, the difficult question is whether elite
> dominance alone, without substantial population replacement, can explain
> such a *complete* eradication of prior languages across almost an entire
> continent. Wouldn't the strategy fail *somewhere* besides Basque country?
> At the very least, such elite dominance would have required an
> extraordinary
> advantage that the indigenous population could not successfully resist
> *anywhere*.
> I find it ironic that *both* of the above approaches are politically
> unpopular in the general press. Press articles typically either avoid the
> issue entirely, or assert the linguistically preposterous claim that the
> Indo-European languages (or simply Celtic!) have been present, distributed
> across Europe, since the LGM--while magically maintaining their obvious
> similarities across many thousands of years and miles.
> -------------------------------
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> quotes in the subject and the body of the message

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