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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2006-12 > 1166140456


From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] FW: R1a in Mongolia
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 16:54:16 -0700
References: <BAY124-W1CE59E1BB380E54E67DE285D50@phx.gbl>


That thought has been woven into a number of papers looking for evidence,
pro or con, that R1a folks from the Central Asian steppes were the "Aryans"
who brought the Indo-European language and culture and rule to South Asia.
I think there has been hot debate on the
haplogroup/language-culture-invasion connection and don't know who is
prevailing at the moment.

Ken
----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel Jenkins" <>
To: <>
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 4:43 PM
Subject: [DNA] FW: R1a in Mongolia


>
> -----------------------------------
>> > From:
>> > To:
>> > Subject: RE: [DNA] R1a in Mongolia
>> > Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 11:13:59 +0000
>> >
>> >
>> > I am probably way off on this , but I feel that looking at a bigger
>> > picture , rather than the diversity of R1a in Southern Asia , looking
>> > at the diversity in toto , in the area of Ukraine , through Germany ,
>> > Western Europe, Scandinavia, British Isles , and Normandy, it would
>> > seem to make more sense that R1a flowed into Southern Asia from a more
>> > northern location . I am not talking about so called invasions.
>> > Thoughts welcomed.
>> >
>> > Dan Jenkins R1a1* known origins , Kent, England
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ----------------------------------------
>> > > From:
>> > > To:
>> > > Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 16:54:29 -0800
>> > > Subject: Re: [DNA] R1a in Mongolia
>> > >
>> > > Doug,
>> > >
>> > > Thank you for the correction. India is thought to be about 20% R1a,
>> > > not
>> > > 37%.
>> > > http://www-03.ibm.com/industries/healthcare/genographic/doc/content/landing/
>> > > 1441348132.html
>> > >
>> > > But that does not make R1a a "little" Haplotype.
>> > >
>> > > Consideration that R1a is about 20% in India and about 67% in Poland
>> > > and
>> > > Russia (including Ukraine?), at 40-50% in the Balkans, 32% in the
>> > > Czech
>> > > Republic, and at 15-25% in other Eastern European counties
>> > > (Wikipedia,
>> > > World Book of Facts, etc.) argue that it is not to be lightly
>> > > dismissed as
>> > > a "little" Haplogroup, monolithic, with little to learn from its
>> > > study.
>> > >
>> > > Incidentally Oppenheimer et al feel R1a may have arisen more in South
>> > > Asia
>> > > than Central Asia. "Stephen Oppenheimer, who reports upon the
>> > > results of
>> > > the Human Genome Diversity Project in his book "The Real Eve: Modern
>> > > Man's
>> > > Journey out of Africa", comments that, "For me and for Toomas
>> > > Kivisild,
>> > > South Asia is logically the ultimate origin of M17 and his ancestors;
>> > > and
>> > > sure enough we find highest rates and greatest diversity of the M17
>> > > line in
>> > > Pakistan, India, and eastern Iran, and low rates in the Caucasus. M17
>> > > is
>> > > not only more diverse in South Asia than in Central Asia but
>> > > diversity
>> > > characterizes its presence in isolated tribal groups in the south,
>> > > thus
>> > > undermining any theory of M17 as a marker of a 'male Aryan Invasion
>> > > of
>> > > India'" (p. 152)."
>> > >
>> > > In any case," little" R1a may reveal its secrets in the fullness of
>> > > time
>> > > (and of funding).
>> > >
>> > > Eric
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > > [Original Message]
>> > > > From: Doug McDonald <>
>> > > > To: <>
>> > > > Date: 12/13/2006 2:50:27 PM
>> > > > Subject: Re: [DNA] R1a in Mongolia
>> > > >
>> > > > Eric Olson wrote:
>> > > > > Haplogroup R1a is hardly a "little" Haplogroup. In fact it can
>> > > > > be
>> > > > > projected to have a greater presence in the world than R1b.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Consider Poland, Ukraine and India, with a combined population of
>> > > > > about
>> > > 1
>> > > > > billion, or nearly 17% of the world's population. Here R1a is
>> > > projected to
>> > > > > be about 67% of the male population, or roughly 670 million
>> > > individuals.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Where do you get those numbers? R1a is nowhere near 67% in
>> > > > India, though it is indeed the largest haplogroup among the
>> > > > non-tribal people.
>> > > >
>> > > > Remember that the third most populous country, the US, has
>> > > > R1b dominant over R1a. Indonesia has zip of either. Brazil
>> > > > probably is even more R1b dominant than the US, with of
>> > > > course lots more Q (though Q is by now probably 4 percent or
>> > > > so in the US) than here. Bangladesh is probably low in R1a
>> > > > and even lower in R1b. Then we hit Pakistan, the very center
>> > > > of the R1a world at present. You really need to add up
>> > > > numbers carefully.
>> > > >
>> > > > Doug McDonald
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > -------------------------------
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