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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2008-02 > 1203244684


From: Beth Long <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Extinction Chances
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 02:38:04 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <004401c8714b$fa5353f0$13a4869f@janeteavhviak4>


Janet wrote:

One would have to track many baptism records to see if
there is, in fact, a marriage record to go with it

Hi Janet,

Exactly: our project began about nine years ago as a
"paper genealogy" project (before we started the DNA
component). We extracted ALL records (births, deaths
and marriages) for a set of five Hungarian villages in
Bukovina (from 1785 to the present).

There are over 80,000 people in this computerized
database. Nearly everyone is accounted for several
times over (at their birth, marriage, and death). So
it's not just a "statistical survey".

I think it is a pretty good picture of the reality in
the community. The fact that DNA matches in people
with up to ten generations of separation attests to
this. There were illegitmacies of course, and in some
cases, we have uncovered the likely surname of the
"pater ignotus".

Beth Long

--- Janet Crawford <> wrote:

> Statistics can be a little deceiving. The Irish
> stats come out about what
> you are seeing, but that is on the surface, and one
> has to dig a little
> deeper to see the whole picture. Priests and
> ministers were people too and
> worked for bosses who criticized one's work in the
> community. A low illeg.
> rate was to be praised and a higher one railed
> against in private, so not
> all illegitimate births were so noted. One priest
> more strict than another.
> One more observant than another. When one looks at
> more than one parish and
> starts comparing records, a different picture
> appears. Someone from the
> lower class is condemned, someone who helps support
> the church... not so
> much. One would have to track many baptism records
> to see if there is, in
> fact, a marriage record to go with it. One thing I
> have noted is that, in
> Ireland, there are double baptism records, one
> record on the child for the
> man and mistress, and yet another for the same child
> with the man and his
> legal spouse. Pulling out the duplicate records also
> gives a somewhat higher
> rate of illegitimacy. Any great disruption of
> society will increase the rate
> during specific time periods, and Ireland suffered
> mightily after the
> Cromwellian War when their religion was suppressed,
> homes taken, and Irish
> society turned upside down.
> Of more importance perhaps would be the culture of
> the people in earlier
> periods. Pre-Christian Ireland used Brehon Law and
> under that a woman was
> free to contract to stay with a man for a year. At
> the end of the time, she
> was free to leave him with no repercussions. Brehon
> Law continued to be used
> in one fashion or another right up into the 1800's.
> Thus, culturally,
> Ireland was never a truly monogamous society, and
> even the priests married
> up into the 1800's despite pressure from Rome. One
> has to give a bit of
> weight to this when looking at the DNA results, but
> what weight, who knows.
>
> Janet
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "grandcross" <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 5:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [DNA] Extinction Chances
>
>
> >
> > Beth Long wrote:
> >
> >> In the area I am studying (Hungarian Roman
> Catholics
> >> of Bukovina), this was definitely not the case.
> We
> >> have church records from the early 1780s, and
> they are
> >> quite specific as to whether a child was
> legitimate or
> >> illegitimate. Births recorded as illegitimate
> were
> >> less than about 5% of the total.
> >>
> >> Unfortunately, in cases of illegitimacy, the
> natural
> >> father was not named (that guy named "pater
> ignotus"
> >> really got around :-)). So it is unknown whether
> the
> >> fathers of these children were married to someone
> >> else, single, the village priest,traveling
> salesman,
> >> or whatever.
> >
> > This is roughly consistent with the many thousands
> of birth entries I've
> > examined (1660-1852) from a mid-size community in
> northern Portugal,
> > except
> > the illegitimate rate is less than about 2%. The
> guy there is known as
> > "Pai
> > ingognito". I haven't yet completed a review of
> all the available records,
> > back to 1570, but this mildly surprising low rate
> seems consistent
> > throughout and the local priests give every
> indication of being brutally
> > frank in describing a correct lineage, which in
> any event is supported by
> > testamentary statements. An illegitimate child's
> maternal grandparents are
> > always identified except in the extraordinary
> circumstance where the baby
> > is
> > deposited at the doorstep of a church or convent.
> >
> >
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