GENEALOGY-DNA-L ArchivesArchiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2008-06 > 1212735072
From: Gary Felix <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Iberian S116+
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 23:51:12 -0700 (PDT)
The maps in the Article I referenced showing the concentration of old E3b, are made from the dataset. Here is the dataset distribution listed in the paper. The number in parenthesis is the sample size:
French Basque (45) No E found
Spanish Basque (48) 2.1 percent M81
Catalan (33) 3.0 percent M78 3.0 percent M81
Andalusian (76) 3.9 percent M78 5.3 percent M81
Andalusian (37) 2.7 percent M35 2.7 percent M78 5.4 percent M81
Last week I ran all of the non R1b on my project page and did nine marker comparisons with the HRD worldwide database (which has grown substancially). Here is one that matches the Berber haplotype per Robert Tarin's paper (the link is on the project page).
The Berber haplotype (E1b1b1b (M81) is a very tight cluster similar to WAMH so there are 238 matches.
In order to put this in perspective I will cut and paste the Iberian results below:
10 / 386 = .026 percent S
1 / 90 = .01 percent N
2 / 224 = .009 percent N
4 / 101 = .04 percent N
12 / 489 = .024 percent C
4 / 152 = .026 percent C
6 / 564 = .01 percent N
Northern Spain [Basque]
1 / 168 = .005 percent N
1 / 134 = .007 percent N
Santiago de Compostela, Spain
2 / 103 = .02 percent N
1 / 112 = .009 percent S
1 / 140 = .007 percent S
1 / 120 = .008 percent N
Highest percentage is in Cantabria in the North of Spain which also shows a hotspot of J in other papers I have seen. Next is Andalucia in the South with .026 as well as Madrid with the same percentage in Central Spain.
Mexico DNA Project Admin.
grandcross <> wrote: I don't see anything in that article that proves or even asserts a
concentration of E1b1b in the south of Iberia. Both major subclades of E
(M78 and M81) are found throughout the peninsula at varying frequencies with
perhaps slightly more M81 in the southeastern part. Along the western
litoral, comprising mostly Portugal, the two E subclades are not evenly
spread from south to north. It would be hard to characterize the picture as
one of concentration in the south In fact M81, the so called "Berber
marker", is seen in greater numbers within the northwest province of Galicia
in Spain than in southern Portugal. In 2005,
"One haplogroup that deserves special consideration is [M81]. Historical
records show that in Portugal (and in all Iberia) the Muslim influence was
more limited to the south, but occupying a vast area that had the Iberian
central mountain range as its northern limit.........today we witness a
rather homogeneous genetic landscape in Portugal (and probably also in most
of Iberia; Flores et al. 2004), at least from the male perspective."
As for M78, Goncalves wrote in 2005,
"Haplogroup E3b1-M78 has a significantly uneven distribution in mainland
Portugal, occurring at 8-6% in Northern and Central Portugal versus only 1%
in the South"
"Our Y chromosome results are also consistent with a continuous and regular
assimilation of Berbers in North of Portugal. This argues against previous
interpretations of Moorish mediated contributions, based on Y chromosome
data (Bosch et al. 2001; Pereira et al. 2000b; Cruciani et al. 2004) and
provides an alternative view of an earlier Berber presence in the North of
> This study on E and J:
> Origin, Diffusion, and Differentiation of Y-Chromosome Haplogroups E
> and J: Inferences on the Neolithization of Europe and Later Migratory
> Events in the Mediterranean Area
> "Old E3b" is now termed E1b1b.
> Mexico DNA Project Admin.
> grandcross wrote:
> Gary wrote:
>> it would be a hard sell to show significant Y genetic contribution from
>> the Neolithic. There is very little J in Iberia and they are concentrated
>> in the south. Old E3b runs at about 10 percent and is also concentrated
>> the south.
> What do you mean by "Old E3b" and what is your source for concluding it is
> "concentrated" in the south?
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