Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2008-06 > 1214176140

From: "Lawrence Mayka" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Jewish E1b1b
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 18:09:00 -0500
In-Reply-To: <009101c8d4b3$76d9d140$6501a8c0@alfap43400ak>

Correct me if my understanding of this is incorrect.

Anatole has taken a wide variety of Jewish E1b1b STR haplotypes, and
according to an algorithm of his own invention has generated both a
cladogram and a corresponding TMRCA. Anatole's clearest results come from
67-marker haplotypes, but he has run his algorithm at lower marker levels
also and has obtained results generally compatible with the 67-marker
results, though with lower resolution.

Resistance to Anatole's assertions centers around two issues:

1) E1b1b is known to embrace a number of common subclades marked by known
SNPs. Many of these SNP-confirmed subclades are common in the Jewish
community, including E1b1b1* (E-M35*), E1b1b1a1 (E-V12), E1b1b1a2 (E-V13),
E1b1b1a3 (E-V22), E1b1b1b2 (E-M165), E1b1b1c1 (E-M34). Anatole's set of
haplotypes must have included most or all of these. These subclades span
various religions and ethnic groups.

Anatole asserts that his generated cladogram, though based on STRs, ends up
reflecting the known SNP-confirmed subclades correctly and equivalently.
Speaking for myself, I see no reason to doubt his assertion when applied to
67-marker haplotypes, because--to my knowledge--E1b1b does not contain any
major SNP-confirmed subclades that are so close at 67 markers as to be
indistinguishable. R1b1b2 (R-M269), in contrast, contains U106+ and U152+
clades that are not reliably distinguishable even at 67 markers.

On the other hand, we all know from experience that some very different
E1b1b subclades are often indistinguishable at the 12- and arguably even at
the 25-marker level. One major question in this discussion is whether
Anatole realizes this fact--that 12- and 25-marker haplotypes are not in
themselves sufficient to distinguish major clades of E1b1b.

2) Anatole's TMRCA for his entire set of Jewish E1b1b haplotypes came out to
6400 years according to his algorithm. Since these haplotypes belong to
many different known SNP-confirmed subclades, his TMRCA must predate the
split-up of E1b1b into these subclades. One major question is whether
Anatole realizes this fact. Moreover, since each major subclade has a
significant percentage of Gentiles, this TMRCA he calculated is clearly long
before the emergence of the Jewish people, and in fact his TMRCA has very
little to do with Jews at all. If Anatole does realize this, his assertion
of a very recent time period for the split-up of E1b1b is at least as
controversial as Ken Nordtvedt's calculations on R1b1b2.

Perhaps what we need is for someone to apply Ken's spreadsheet to the
subclades of E1b1b. We could then discuss the differences between Ken's and
Anatole's results.

> [mailto:] On Behalf Of
> Anatole Klyosov
> O.K. Let me give you a simple analogy. Someone invented a
> device to separate apples
> and oranges and to put them into separate bins. And he did it
> successfully. He (deliberately!!)
> put a mix of apples and oranges in a hopper, and voila. They
> are separated. The machine does it.

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