Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2008-12 > 1228250178

From: "Elizabeth O'Donoghue" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] TRMCA for R1b1
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 20:36:18 -0000
In-Reply-To: <>

Tim, thank you for addressing my questions. Table 2 in Karafet's paper is
what I was looking for. It certainly has some disparate ages from the
different studies listed. I can understand why some are reluctant to use
her date for CT as a secure starting point, if even she herself has
hesitations about it.

Vince said:

'It is a challenge for the Semino theory to explain how it is that the
forms of R-M269 found in the eastern end of its range (that is, into
the Near East and Central Asia) are the most ancestral forms (from a
phylogenetic standpoint) and **yet have very similar STR haplotypes**.
The haplotype similarity can not be reconciled with long periods of
isolation and separation (during the LGM, for example), yet a mad dash
from Iberia to Iraq after the LGM seems equally unlikely.'

**I've tried to think about what it was like for man while the ice sheets
were descending. They would have been coming from the mountains down into
the valleys, where many of these men were living. Would they have been able
to determine that the ice was moving north to south? It could be that the
majority of those living within the area of the LGM eventually died out and
those in the 'Iberian refugium', whoever they were, were there the whole
time and basically all that was left. That would certainly be a bottleneck,
but those few would just as certainly have been in the best place to
repopulate Europe as the ice retreated.

Would it have to have been a 'mad dash' to travel east? We don't know how
long the European Taklamakan peoples were on the Steppes, only what age the
mummies were that have been found there. It's not as if man in Western
Europe couldn't travel during the ice age, he would only have been
restricted in his choice of routes. Maybe R-M269 were the nomadic types.
Maybe they liked sea travel.

If Karafet's age for CT is inaccurate, then all the dominoes may be going to
wrong way. A discrepancy of 20,000 years or more would make a vast
difference to the big picture. I sometimes wonder how anyone can be sure of

Thanks to all.


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