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From: Alan R <>
Subject: [DNA] DNA] Italian R-M269 may be 2-3X as old as Anatolian R-M269
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 13:10:08 +0000 (GMT)


David

You really would have to rewrite European prehistory to find an out of Italy spread.  There is not a scrap of evidence for it and Italy does not seem to have really had much influence on northern or central or far western Europe until the Roman period.  Its a complete non-starter from an archaeological point of view.  

It is possible is that Anatolia is not the source of R1b.  The refugia could have been in the Balkans where many important Neolithic cultures emerged, possibly from the local hunters copying the peoples to the south on the Aegean.  These hunters could have been there since the ice age.  Perhaps R1b1 emerged from R1 during the LGM.  If this is so then Cardial emerged in the Adriatic Balkans close to Italy and perhaps Italy was one of its first stops when it spread out. Perhaps R1b evolved for a while in a restricted area in and around the Balkans and only emerged in earnest in the Cardial and possibly also the Linearbandkermik (which began in Hungary) expansions. Both the LBK and Cardial Neolithic seems ot have had roots in the same north Balkans Neolithic groups so its not impossible that they were both R1b groups. 

Anyway, if you wish to leave Anatolia out of the equation then you could see R1b as the genetic signal of hunters in SE Europe who took up farming under the influence of those further south in the Balkans and the Adriatic.  I have no problem with this.  Anatolie says we should really be looking at the Balkans in terms of R1a and during the LGM we were initially still in the R1 phase so the ancestors of both R1a and R1b should have been in the same area.  The only problem that leaves is that the SE was rather fancied as an I refuge too.  

As I posted before, this is not meant to be an argument about which part of SE Europe/SW Asia is the R1b homeland.  It is easier first to see if we can agree that Iberia could not be the R1b refuge.  Trying to widen the argument into deciding where in the SE R1b lived is clouding this simple issue which must be addressed first.

Alan
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