Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2009-05 > 1243708107

From: "Tom Gull" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] revised TMRCA calcuations for the R-L21 results
Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 14:28:27 -0400
References: <>
In-Reply-To: <>

I agree that certain tribal or mythical associations wrap some modern
individuals up in their grasp and we see some wild statements made as a
result. Many people decide what they want to see and then find only
evidence for their favorite hypotheses.

Along those lines, I think your point below is also overstated. Your
examples prove that the kind of individual line survival/extinction you
mention is real and we can find examples of it. Extrapolating from that to
say that mass movements of populations and replacements therefore didn't
occur and aren't part of the dynamic of Y-DNA survival is not supported by
the same examples. The two hypotheses aren't mutually exclusive; both can
and have happened in human recorded history and presumably in prehistory. So
the real effort should be to (a) accurately describe what is in place today
and then (b) use all sorts of disciplines to explain ways in which those
patterns might have happened. In some cases, deeper research will disprove
some hypotheses. In others, we'll have equally possible explanations and
may never know which really happened. Behind all the real study is the
favoritism people have for what they believe happened. As long as people
see their own biases as such, we can keep getting closer to finding data
that indicates what might really have happened in a given case. And we can
certainly conclude today from all the evidence that no one mechanism was at
work in Y-DNA dispersal. At least that's what my cautiousness bias suggests

From: "Beth Long" <>
Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2009 4:41 AM
To: <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] revised TMRCA calcuations for the R-L21 results

> My opinion is that the Y-DNA landscape we see today should be viewed more
> in terms of survival and extinction of individual lines, not as mass
> movements of populations. All it takes is for one single man to move to a
> distant place and have "reproductive success" to produce a large
> population with that Y-DNA some number of generations later.
> But some folks seem to love the idea of these mythical kingdoms and
> "elites", so this type of thread will continue...
> Beth Long
> Beth Long
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