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From: Vincent Vizachero <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] R1b Origins (was OurEuropeangeographicalblock. . .)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 08:53:11 -0700 (PDT)
References: <194428.60201.qm@web111302.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><303DCA77B75B424FAE977AA22F716975@DadPC>
In-Reply-To: <303DCA77B75B424FAE977AA22F716975@DadPC>


Peter,

There are no data that support the idea that R-M343 was present in Europe before or during the LGM, much less that it was the "main haplogroup". All the subclades of R-M343 have higher variance in the Near East than in Europe: heck, most of them are barely PRESENT in Europe today.

Above and beyond that, the genetic evidence is very clear in telling us that there was no "thousands of years" period in which the subclades of R1b1b2 multiplied. The branches connecting the MRCAs of these clades is in the tens of generations (some much less) rather than hundreds.

And since R-U106 and R-P312 did not exist during the late glacial, there will be no proving they existed anywhere then.

VV


----- Original Message ----
From: Peter A. Kincaid <>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2009 11:19:11 AM
Subject: Re: [DNA] R1b Origins (was OurEuropeangeographicalblock. . .)

All of the data is consistent with R-M343 being the main
haplogroup in western Europe following the LGM (ie.
there are no modern R1b subclades). These R-M343
(less than 75,000) rapidly spread throughout the virgin
lands of western Europe. Over the next several thousand
years distinctive subclades emerged in different parts of
western Europe (given thier relative separation from
each other thanks to natural barriers), and spread
from the respective zones which they dominated. I
think that if wants to be a proponent of R1b having
an east to west movement they need to prove that
the main subclades (U106 and P312) existed outside
of western Europe prior to the Late Glacial period.


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