Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2009-12 > 1260126972

From: "Richard Stevens" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] R-U152 and R-L21 on the European Continent
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2009 14:16:12 -0500
References: <><>
In-Reply-To: <>

Those are the differences, but I don't find them "jaw dropping", especially
in light of the fact, of which I feel compelled to remind folks over and
over, that testing for U152 (and U106) has been going since 2005 and testing
for L21 only began in late October of 2008. Just as commercial testing for
L21 began, the world's economy went into the toilet. No doubt that has had
some effect on orders for SNP testing. Perhaps we would know even more if
more folks had more discretionary income to spend on SNP testing, as they
did prior to autumn of 2008.

L21 is not completely absent from Switzerland nor from Italy (neither is

My own opinion (subject to change as more evidence comes to light) is that
many (but not all) of the ancient Celts or Proto-Italo-Celts were P312+.
Both U152 and L21 arose within that community, perhaps as the progeny of a
couple of Genghis Khan-like chieftains whose spheres of influence overlapped
to a great degree but became a bit different, especially on the peripheries,
as their descendants went hither and yon and as a consequence of various
well-known effects (founder, drift, etc.).

By the way, there are also thus far at least three R-L21*s in Denmark, but
only one of them has joined the R-L21 Plus Project or identified himself as
L21+ in Ysearch. The others are in FTDNA's database and appear on the
Haplotree/My Matches pages of project members. I had FTDNA email them and
ask them to join the R-L21 Plus Project, but neither of them has done so
yet. Perhaps there is a language problem to overcome.

I wonder if anyone has noticed the amount of P312+ and subclades in
Scandinavia. I think for awhile it was assumed that U106 was the default
R1b1b2 subclade in Scandinavia, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I
haven't counted the beans yet, but I think there may be as much if not more
P312+ in Scandinavia (and perhaps in Germany, too) as there is U106+.


----- Original Message -----
From: "David Faux" <>
To: <>
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 12:59
Subject: Re: [DNA] R-U152 and R-L21 on the European Continent

> This must be an "eye of the beholder" matter. I look at my google map of
> the distribution of U152 and Rich's google map of the distribution of L21
> and I see jaw dropping differences. To be sure there are significant
> areas
> of overlap in the Rhine and "classic La Tene areas", but U152 thins (or
> disappears) where L21 is found at its most significant concentrations -
> for
> example Ireland and the west coast of Norway to name but two regions; and
> U152 is heavily concentrated in Switzerland and Northern Italy while L21
> peters out here to close to zero.
> David K. Faux.

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