Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2009-12 > 1260131689

From: David Faux <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] R-U152 and R-L21 on the European Continent
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 12:34:49 -0800
References: <><><30DCF925210946B8BF32BE93FC6678BB@RichardNW>
In-Reply-To: <30DCF925210946B8BF32BE93FC6678BB@RichardNW>


I don't really disagree with most of what you say below, with a couple
of caveats.

There now appears to be many times more L21 than U152 despite the relatively
short time it has been available. This is curious because the major
subclade of U152 is L2 and it was discovered at approximately the same time
as L21. So I don't think that L2 or its derivative L20 have any sort of
"out of the gate quicker" advantage relative to L21.

I "thumbed" through the British Isles Project county by county and even in
England there was only about a half dozen U152 yet L21 was found in almost
every county. L21 seems to be "swamping" U152 in the northern tier of
Europe, Insular or Continental. The exceptions tend to be a bit further
south in certain relative hotspots for example western Spain - plus the
rather heavy scattering in southern Italy and Sardinia (relative to the
numbers tested) that begs an explanation.

Perhaps comparing the size of the L2 and L20 in Kerchner's U152 project with
the L21 in your own would provide a more apples to apples view of the
numbers. I fear that U152 is miniscule by comparison - although the immense
number of L21 in Ireland will skew the data.

As to U106, there is good evidence that it predominates in northern Germany,
the Netherlands, and Scandinavia. Myres et al. 2007 found that of the M269,
about half was U106 and the rest as then unresolved (it is perhaps a fairly
even mixture of P312*, L21 and U152). In an unpublished study of the
Netherlands completed in 2005, U106 made up about 75% of the R1b total with
only a single solitary U152 (of a sample of about 100). Similar findings
were made in relation to Norway although 20% or so were U152 but only in the
southeastern part of the country. I have the specifics somewhere and will,
if my colleagues are unwilling or unable to publish this stuff, put it all
out for full view. We can just focus on what is published if you would

So here I think one would be on safe grounds concluding that U106
predominates in Scandinavia and the northern Germanic countries (as well as
Austria - see Myres et al. 2007 and Neiderstatter et al. 2008). P312 and
downstream shares the leftovers - we just don't know the relative
percentages of the pie.

David K. Faux.

On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Richard Stevens <>wrote:

> Those are the differences, but I don't find them "jaw dropping", especially
> in light of the fact, of which I feel compelled to remind folks over and
> over, that testing for U152 (and U106) has been going since 2005 and
> testing
> for L21 only began in late October of 2008. Just as commercial testing for
> L21 began, the world's economy went into the toilet. No doubt that has had
> some effect on orders for SNP testing. Perhaps we would know even more if
> more folks had more discretionary income to spend on SNP testing, as they
> did prior to autumn of 2008.
> L21 is not completely absent from Switzerland nor from Italy (neither is
> R-P312*).
> My own opinion (subject to change as more evidence comes to light) is that
> many (but not all) of the ancient Celts or Proto-Italo-Celts were P312+.
> Both U152 and L21 arose within that community, perhaps as the progeny of a
> couple of Genghis Khan-like chieftains whose spheres of influence
> overlapped
> to a great degree but became a bit different, especially on the
> peripheries,
> as their descendants went hither and yon and as a consequence of various
> well-known effects (founder, drift, etc.).
> By the way, there are also thus far at least three R-L21*s in Denmark, but
> only one of them has joined the R-L21 Plus Project or identified himself as
> L21+ in Ysearch. The others are in FTDNA's database and appear on the
> Haplotree/My Matches pages of project members. I had FTDNA email them and
> ask them to join the R-L21 Plus Project, but neither of them has done so
> yet. Perhaps there is a language problem to overcome.
> I wonder if anyone has noticed the amount of P312+ and subclades in
> Scandinavia. I think for awhile it was assumed that U106 was the default
> R1b1b2 subclade in Scandinavia, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I
> haven't counted the beans yet, but I think there may be as much if not more
> P312+ in Scandinavia (and perhaps in Germany, too) as there is U106+.
> Rich

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