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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2009-12 > 1260137005


From: Gary Felix <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] R-U152 and R-L21 on the European Continent
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 14:03:25 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <ea3bd9560912061234v7852226ei3cd5864fc6cf12b1@mail.gmail.com>


David,
you present some good points.

The areas of expansion are still corresponding to the recolonization of Europe after the Ice. (see the book Mesolithic Europe by Bailey).

R-U152 centered around the area of Lake Constance on the German/Swiss border is the area of the first migration out of Franco/Iberia.
The next two migrations (where R-L21 originated) were to Doggerland and S England (an extension of Doggerland). No surprise that R-L21 in Western Norway as there was an open corridor as much as 12K years ago. Evidence of settlement is from 10K years ago but archeologists believe earlier settlements could be under water. 

R-U106 coming from the eastern refugium (North of the Black Sea) to settle along the Baltic and moving into the Doggerland area from the East.

As to why U152 is not as prevalent as L21 the reason is likely resources. Doggerland evidently could support a large expansion. Your findings of U152 in Denmark corresponds with a subsequent migration our of the Lake Constance area to Denmark some 11K years ago.  It appears that I-M223 shared this area of expansion as it is relatively infrequent in Europe as well.
http://tinyurl.com/yk3amxa

Bottom line is it appears that those making it to Doggerland the earliest expanded the most.

Gary
Mexico DNA Project Admin.




--- On Sun, 12/6/09, David Faux <> wrote:

From: David Faux <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] R-U152 and R-L21 on the European Continent
To:
Date: Sunday, December 6, 2009, 12:34 PM

Rich,

I don't really disagree with most of what you say below, with a couple
of caveats.

There now appears to be many times more L21 than U152 despite the relatively
short time it has been available.  This is curious because the major
subclade of U152  is L2 and it was discovered at approximately the same time
as L21.  So I don't think that L2 or its derivative L20 have any sort of
"out of the gate quicker" advantage relative to L21.

I "thumbed" through the British Isles Project county by county and even in
England there was only about a half dozen U152 yet L21 was found in almost
every county.  L21 seems to be "swamping" U152 in the northern tier of
Europe, Insular or Continental.  The exceptions tend to be a bit further
south in certain relative hotspots for example western Spain - plus the
rather heavy scattering in southern Italy and Sardinia (relative to the
numbers tested) that begs an explanation.

Perhaps comparing the size of the L2 and L20 in Kerchner's U152 project with
the L21 in your own would provide a more apples to apples view of the
numbers.  I fear that U152 is miniscule by comparison - although the immense
number of L21 in Ireland will skew the data.

As to U106, there is good evidence that it predominates in northern Germany,
the Netherlands, and Scandinavia.  Myres et al. 2007 found that of the M269,
about half was U106 and the rest as then unresolved (it is perhaps a fairly
even mixture of P312*, L21 and U152).  In an unpublished study of the
Netherlands completed in 2005, U106 made up about 75% of the R1b total with
only a single solitary U152 (of a sample of about 100).  Similar findings
were made in relation to Norway although 20% or so were U152 but only in the
southeastern part of the country.  I have the specifics somewhere and will,
if my colleagues are unwilling or unable to publish this stuff, put it all
out for full view.  We can just focus on what is published if you would
prefer.

So here I think one would be on safe grounds concluding that U106
predominates in Scandinavia and the northern Germanic countries (as well as
Austria - see Myres et al. 2007 and Neiderstatter et al. 2008).  P312 and
downstream shares the leftovers - we just don't know the relative
percentages of the pie.

David K. Faux.




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