Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2009-12 > 1260671636

From: "Tim Janzen" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] R-U152 and R-L21 on the European Continent
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2009 18:33:56 -0800

Dear Anatole,
Thanks for your comments. They are helpful. I still think that an
estimated age of Y Adam at about 55,000-60,000 years when comparing data
from most haplogroups to haplogroup A is lower than what the true age of Y
Adam is. I say that at least in part due to results I got from doing
similar calculations for the node of haplogroup C with the other haplogroups
as per the following chart that was included in my message at

Haplogroup TMRCA in years
Node 50 markers YHRD 24-slow slow medium-slow medium medium-fast fast
C/E node: 23215 15662 24630 64720 13315 18773 29727 15421
C/F node: 25223 19118 33021 49368 29350 17014 42137 12244
C/G node: 25708 19234 36668 66327 32070 19499 28333 10052
C/H node: 25876 9861 38941 63461 41554 15357 29585 17196
C/I node: 28799 20143 54122 153704 25871 22800 32188 5935
C/J node: 28033 15914 52793 141484 32407 17973 25033 8343
C/L node: 29439 31659 48638 60116 54036 21364 33659 12992
C/N node: 30541 32274 65567 61079 77120 24004 20129 5499
C/O node: 36653 26520 75484 188092 46906 18195 24475 14107
C/Q node: 27070 34492 47490 75663 55353 19490 25425 9271
C/R node: 23466 24452 42796 56407 54402 11323 24461 8428
C/T node: 23582 18928 41059 71283 47961 13141 15367 19035

Note that the node for haplogroup C to the other haplogroups
averaged about 23,000-30,000 years when using 50 markers. I think we would
all agree that this is too low and that the true age of the node for
haplogroup C to the other haplogroups is somewhere in the 45,000 to 70,000
year range. The calculations I got using the 24 slowest markers in the 67
marker panel seems to fit my estimate for the true age of the node for
haplogroup C to the other haplogroups the best.
I agree with you that we don't have a nice selection of haplogroup A
or B samples. For the calculations I did I only had 9 67-marker haplogroup
A haplotypes and 2 67-marker haplogroup B haplotypes. However, I am not
sure that having a wider selection of 67-marker haplotypes from either
haplogroup would change the interclade TMRCA estimates all that much. There
does seem to be a limited number of basic haplogroup A haplotypes in my
group of haplotypes. These are the two basic types of 12-marker haplotypes
I have seen:
13 21 15 9 11 12 11 11 12 13 11 29
13 23 14 11 16 17 12 10 12 13 11 31
The second one appears to be the "old" variety that you referred to.
It is very interesting that you said in your earlier message today
that you "bumped onto a severe bottleneck for haplogroup A ~28,000 ybp
(technically I got 28,200 ybp, with 107 of 37-marker haplotypes from
YSearch). A similar story was with haplogroup B, ~26,000 ybp (technically
25,900 ybp, with only 15 of 25-marker haplotypes from YSearch). THEIR common
ancestor, of haplogroups A and B, lived 36,700 ybp."
One reasonable possibility is that the bottleneck was due to the Mt.
Toba volcanic eruption that occurred ca 70,000 years ago. We know that the
number of humans was reduced to as few as several thousand people at that
time (see That is
probably the most substantial bottleneck that the human species has gone
through in the past 100,000 years. If your estimates for the bottlenecks of
haplogroups A and B are off by a factor of two to three, then this would fit
well with the Mt. Toba volcanic eruption.
I don't see how there is any possibility that the node for
haplogroups A and B was as recent as 36,700 years ago as your current
calculations suggest. We know that haplogroup C was already in Australia by
40,000 years ago. Thus 40,000 years ago is the very latest that the M130
SNP could have occurred. It seems more reasonable to me to believe that the
M130 SNP occurred around 50,000 years ago. M168 also must have occurred at
least 45,000 years ago and probably occurred somewhere around 50,000-60,000
years ago. Thus in all probability the M60 SNP that defines haplogroup B
occurred at least 50,000 years ago and the node for haplogroups A and B must
have been older than that.

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Anatole Klyosov
Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 4:39 PM
Cc: Anatole Klyosov
Subject: Re: [DNA] R-U152 and R-L21 on the European Continent

Now I have calculated 107 of 37-marker haplotypes of haplogroup A, and there
were only two branches, an "old" and a "young" one. That was easy.


Anatole Klyosov

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