Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2010-11 > 1289415030

From: Dienekes Pontikos <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] First Neolithic Y-DNA published
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 20:50:30 +0200
References: <><>
In-Reply-To: <>

I may be one of the remaining few who think that R1b and R1a did not
enter Europe in such a recent time frame by some sort of folk
migration. The Corded Ware culture was of European origin, even though
some have attempted to trace a Kurgan influence to its formation.
Anthropologically, though the Corded Ware people were much different
than the steppe zone of eastern Europe. Physical anthropology is not
in vogue, but there is simply no evidence for mass-scale population
replacement in Europe in an Eneolithic or Bronze Age time frame, and
no obvious outside population that might spawn the Corded Ware people.

If anything, I would attribute R1b's remarkable success story in
Europe to some sort of natural selection; alternatively it may be
linked to some coast-hugging Neolithic dispersal along the north
Mediterranean and Atlantic coast originating in the Aegean. The
evidence for R1a is contradictory, with modern populations suggesting
a South Asian origin, while its presence in Kurgan-related steppe
groups suggests a European origin. We must wait to see what ancient
Y-chromosome studies will show.

As for Dr. Klyosov's theory that R1b is "Turkic", I believe that's
largely based on the R-M73 in Uygurs, and I consider it to be highly
improbable and lacking in parsimony.

On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 10:24 AM, Tim Janzen <> wrote:
> Dear Dienekes,
>        Thanks for bringing this article to our attention and for your
> thoughtful comments on the paper.  I think that the evidence is building for
> the theory that R1b and probably also R1a did not significantly participate
> in the early Neolithic expansion into Europe (the LBK Culture), if they
> participated in it at all.  It seems more likely that R1b and R1a entered
> Europe for the first time during the Corded Ware Culture (2900 BC to 2400
> BC) or possibly even later than that.  It appears that the people of the
> Corded Ware Culture and subsequent migrations for the most part overwhelmed
> the LKB Culture one way or another.  Anatole Klyosov has an extensive
> discussion of R1a and R1b at
> that is also of interest.
>        I am not sure why Andrew Oh-Willeke would comment on your web site
> that "Of course, since we don't expect to find R1b in this region, its
> absence isn't very informative."  In my opinion it has previously been a
> reasonable hypothesis that R1b participated in the LBK Culture in the early
> Neolithic period.  However, my most recent dates for the age of R-L11 and
> downstream R1b SNPs would suggest that L11 and its descendents are too young
> to have participated in the early Neolithic expansion into Europe.
>        I think it is fantastic that the authors of the study have been able
> to extract Y DNA from LBK Culture burials.  I hope that other researchers
> can extract more Y DNA from other LBK Culture burials and later burials as
> well.
> Sincerely,
> Tim Janzen
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
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> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 2:12 PM
> To:
> Subject: [DNA] First Neolithic Y-DNA published
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