Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2010-11 > 1289586312

From: Mike W <>
Subject: [DNA] Fwd: First Neolithic Y-DNA published
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 12:25:12 -0600
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In-Reply-To: <>

Dienekes said "a theory that places the origin of R1b at the very
eastern end of its current distribution lacks in parsimony, as R1b
folk must've .... moved all the way to the Atlantic but made barely a
presence either East or South of their supposed homeland"

My response: I can see that parsimony, like many things, is in the eye
of the beholder. Apparently you think the high frequency of of more
importance than high variance as an indicator of direction of movement
since you place great weight on the current distribution. Do you
disagree with the the Klopstein "The Fate of Mutations Surfing on the
Wave of a Range Expansion" study? It provides an explanation for the
cline in variance we see where east looks older than west.

Dienekes said "I never thought that R1b was from Central Asia, and
when the National Geographic documentary said that Central Asians are
some kind of ur-fathers of East and West Eurasians, I clearly pointed
out that that is not the case, and their increased diversity is due to
their recently admixed status, and all subsequent autosomal research
has proved me right"

My response: How does autosomnal research prove you right? Diversity
across the Y chromosome is independent of diversity across autosomnal
chromosomes. The two are not tied together as is evidenced by the
vastly different distribution of Y and mt clades and some autosomnal

Fortunately, there is deep clade testing now available for R-M343
(R1b). The Myres "A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era
founder effect in Central and Western Europe" study shows the highest
coalescence ages for R-U106 (R1b1b2a1a1) as Estonia and Poland. Myres
shows highest age for R-P312 (R1b1b2a1a2) as Turkey. These are "THE"
two very large R-M343 clades of Western Europe, but the locations
Myres cites are hardly Atlantic facing countries. I'm not calling them
Central Asian either, but I'd say the labels East Europe and SW Asia
are fair.

Beyond Y chromosome diversity, it is relevant to look at the actual
phylogeny of the R-M343 subclades as has been done in the "ht35"
project and the Myres study. There is a clear east to west cline here
as well in the proportional mix SNP results.

Regards, Mike

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