Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2010-11 > 1289696827

Subject: Re: [DNA] First Neolitic Y-DNA published
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 01:07:07 +0000 (UTC)
In-Reply-To: <>

From: Dienekes Pontikos

>> There are two incorrect statements here again. First, I would truly appreciate to see DATA on "clear West Eurasian distribution" meaning "origin". If you show me R1b1b2 haplotypes in Turkey , I can tell you right away that their common ancestor lived around 6,000 ybp. Is it "origin"? At the same time, there are haplotype branches in the Altai region among R1b1 with a common ancestor who lived around 17,000 ybp. What say you?

Dear Dienekes,

I repeat my request: I would truly appreciate to see DATA on "clear West Eurasian distribution" (R1a or R1b) meaning "origin".

Let's forger fo a while on (time and place) origin of Caucasoids. In fact, nobody knows it, there are only conjectures. I myself have a  hypothesis that Caucasoids have originated around 50,000 ybp on the East European Plain, and migrated West, to Central Europe (as haplogroup I and/or its upstream haplogroup IJ or even IJK), and East, to South Siberia (as haplogroup P and/or its upstream haplogroup NOP which split soon onto NO and P), and I have listed many data available, including anthropology and archeology, in my publication in January of 2010 in our Proceedings. However, our discussion is not about it. It is about an origin of R1a and Rib.

I repeat that there are plenty of data pointing at the Altai region as a home of R1a of 21,000 ybp and R1b of 16,000 ybp. I can provide anyone with haplotype trees (containing hundreds of haplotypes), base haplotypes, mutation patterns, calculations, subclade patterns and TMRCA estimates all the way from the Altai region to Europe, for R1a and R1b. All of it was published, and is on the net in the latest issues of our Proceedings. In the same issues are detailed considerations of recent Myres et al article (not a very favorable consideration, I should tell). There is no room for R1a1 and/or R1b1 origin in Europe and/or in West Eurasia. Again, what it is, specifically? Region, maybe, please? Years? Ancestral haplotypes? Mutation patterns? Calculations? Please, confess, that you have nothing of those. I do have. Do you see a difference?

>"The results presented in Table 1 are consistent with the idea that
Upper Paleolithic crania are, for the most part, larger and more
generalized versions of recent Europeans. Howells ([1995]) reached a
similar conclusion with respect to European Mesolithic crania. "

Can you elaborate, please? Do you have crania of Upper Paleolitic R1b1? R1a1? Does anyone have? I can only refer you to my article "DNA Genealogy, craniometry, and the origin of Caucasioids", 2010, Januaty, pp. 1256-1309 (ibid).

>It's also funny that these "Paleolithic Siberian Caucasoids" made
barely an autosomal dent in their Mongoloid neighbors but seemingly
expanded and replaced the (pre-Caucasoid?) population all the way to
Ireland. Drang nach Westen, again.

Is it an argument? Seriously? Please define "seemingly".  


Anatole Klyosov

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