Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2010-11 > 1289756768

Subject: Re: [DNA] First Neolithic Y-DNA published
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 17:46:08 +0000 (UTC)
In-Reply-To: <>

From: Vincent Vizachero < >

>An intelligent and objective reading of the evidence will lead to the
inevitable conclusion that the quote below is fallacious, at least
with regards to R1b1.

>West Eurasia (SW Asia, specifically) is the point at which both
haplotype variance and subclade diversity reach their maximum.

>>On Nov 13, 2010, at 8:07 PM, wrote:
>> There is no room for R1a1 and/or R1b1 origin in Europe and/or in
>> West Eurasia.

As I have indicated earlier, I do not buy that kind of verbal "statements" on "haplotype variance and subclade diversity". DATA, maybe? Years? Base (ancestral) haplotypes? Calculations? Haplotype trees?

I repeat, specifically re. R1b1: There is no room for R1b1 origin in Europe and/or West Eurasia.

Even the choice of vague terms such as "West Eurasia (SW Asia, specifically)" "is the point" (??)... Which "point", sorry? Which criteria define "origin", in your "book"? Did you ever compare R1b1 in "SW Asia" with the Altai region? With North-West China? What did you get?

I will tell you what you would have gotten. On R1b1 haplotype tree from Europe to Northern China, R1b1 from the Altai region stand distinctly high compared with all other regions, including Anatolia and Turkey in general, Europe, Central Asia, India, Pakistan, etc. (the latter two have relatively few R1b1). Iran has a small amount of R1b1, and relatively recent ones in terms of their common ancestor. The reason is that the migration route of R1b1 went through Central Asia, middle Volga, Caucasus, Middle East, North Africa, Pyrenees, and so on, as described above.     

A common ancestor of R1b1 in the Altai region lived around 17,000 years ago, which fits pretty well with 16,000 years bp published by me in 2008 (based on extended haplotypes provided to me directly from Central Asia and North West China), and obtained from a comparison of R1b1 haplotypes in Europe and Asia.  

The migration route of R1b1 from the Altai region goes through Central Asia (common ancestor of 6,900 ybp), Bashkirs (6,000 ybp), ethnic Russians R1b1 (6,800 ybp), Caucasus (6,000 ybp, mainly L23), Anatolia (6,000 ybp), Lebanon (5,500 ybp), the R1b1 Midl-Eastern Jews (5,500 ybp), to the Pyrenees (4,800 ybp) and up to the continental Europe (4,200 ybp an later) and the Isles.

Your DATA, please? Chronology? Ancestral haplotypes? Calculation? Haplotype trees?

Nothing? I understand. Sorry.

Anatole Klyosov 


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