Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2010-11 > 1290906537

From: "Julie Frame Falk" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] SNP Breakthrough for I1*-AS
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2010 12:08:57 +1100
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Aaron, was my misunderstanding! Thus far, I have heard back from one of the Frame A outliers, and that L338 order will be proceeding. It may help anyway.

<<In your previous message, you alluded to the mysterious relationship between the 7PGXX group, Frame A and Hamilton C. At the moment, I cannot explain it either, even though I have my working theories. One piece of information that may hold the key to this issue is the age of the YCAIIa, YCAIIb recLOH we all carry.>>

Yes, I agree the age of the RecLOH YCAIIa,b=21,21 is key to us.

<<Here is the 7PGXX group. It will grow, as at the moment FT DNA is performing tests on another member of the Torres family (his and 7PGXX's MRCA was born in Braga, Portugal in 1841).>>

It would be nice to have a 67-marker modal for your men who carry the RecLOH, but with only three, no doubt it is skewed towards 7PGXX. Just as a matter of interest, one of our members at the Crispin Cousins forum at Yahoo has been (very kindly!) working on a phylogenetic tree for the various families believed to come under the 'Crispin' umbrella. It was desperately needed for perspective to aid traditional research. These CC families include Hamilton, Harris, Powichrowski, Coldham, Douglas, Gordon, Skarbek, Sinclair/St Clair, Scruggs, Frame and many, many more. Since my previous post, I had another look at the phylogenetic tree and 7PGXX is very near a tight cluster of Frame A, Hamilton C, Scruggs (they also have this RecLOH. There are a few other names in this cluster as well. The tentative date the researcher has for the branching of 7PGXX from Frame A is 1275 - 1325 AD...which does seem to line up with the latter part of the Crusades. The reason I suggested this, even if a long shot, is because of a tomb in the church at Moccas, Herefordshire. The following is from the SELECT CHRONOLOGY OF EVENTS page on our Project website:

SIR REGINALD DE FRESME (aka De Fresne aka De Freigne etc.)

The Crusader of Moccas, Herefordshire.

'The thing that interested me most in the Church was the beautiful tomb of Sir Reginald de Fresme (Fraxinus=Ashe) the Crusader, perhaps an ancestor of my own. He lay very still and quiet with his legs crossed and his feet resting against his faithful hound. There was a look of deep calm upon his face as if his soul were at perfect peace. The Great Crusade, the battle of life, was over and now; no Saracen or Infidel vexed the warrior Crusader's rest. The shield upon his arm was pure. His good sword slept in its sheath by his side and his hands were clasped in silent prayer. And so in the dim light of the choir of the old Norman church he had lain silently praying night and day for seven hundred years. Requiescat in Pace.' [Robert Francis Kilvert, KILVERT'S DIARY: 14 MAY 1874 -18 MARCH 1879, p.165]

The Crusades to restore Christian control of the Holy Land were fought between 1095 and 1291. Other campaigns in Spain and Eastern Europe continued into the 15th century.

The Moccas Village website identifies what appears to be the same tomb as being that of Richard de Fresne who died 1375, rather than the aforementioned Sir Reginald:

'The effigy in the centre of the chancel is probably of Richard de Fresne who died in 1375. His crossed legs show he had been on a crusade & the dog at his feet that he died at home.'

It all a bit like peering into a thick fog with a candle, and it's obvious there is some confusion as to whether this Crusader was Reginald or Richard, but nevertheless, the reason for our interest in this family is because of their very close association with the family of Adam de Port. Tenants were often kinfolk, and Frame A have a 37-8 match with St John descended from Adam de Port. Maybe a useful signpost!

BTW Aaron, the research group Crispin Cousins was founded by Michael Harris. It is an open group at Yahoo and I am sure Michael won't mind me saying that we would welcome you, the Hamiltons and anyone else interested in researching this nexus. Many theories are openly discussed, so the more input the better!

Kind regards
Julie Frame Falk

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