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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2010-11 > 1291075488


From: Mike W <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] R1b and R1a fate
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 18:04:48 -0600
References: <716460.24873.qm@web25902.mail.ukl.yahoo.com><997903253.1036352.1291064765821.JavaMail.root@sz0002a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
In-Reply-To: <997903253.1036352.1291064765821.JavaMail.root@sz0002a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>


Dear Anatole,

What is the basis for your determination that:
1) R1b was carried with the Botai Culture?
2) The Botai people spoke a Turkic, or non-IE or other language?

I've been reading about the Botai, but I don't see the connections
other than possibly the horse domestication and riding or lack of
"old" R1a in a particular location as being potential clues.

Regards, Mike W.


---- Anatole K wrote:
..... Yes, horse was one of the main advantages of R1b. Apparently, it
was domesticated in Botai archaeological culture, around 5500-6000 ybp
in North Kazakhstan, on a migration way from the Altai region to the
West. Then (and before)  R1b set a number of archaeological cultures
in the Ural and middle Volga areas, between 11,000 and 5,000 ybp, and
many of them went via the Caucasus to Anatolia, Middle East, and
westward, to Iberia and North from there.....



















----- Original Message -----
From: "vernade didier" <>
To: "list genealogy-dna" <>
Cc:
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2010 12:23:39 PM
Subject: R1b and R1a fate


List,

Recently, following the proposal made by Anatole Klyosov (discussed on
this list) saying that R1a was already in eastern Europe when R1b came
from central Asia (at least very much east as compared to R1a position
at that time), a modification of that proposal has been posted on the
french part of DNA-forums by Bernard Secher. One main point of
difference is that R1b is said "proto-IE" and these people are thought
to have brought the IE language. The key starting point is the Yamnaya
culture, often cited as typically IE. The first map is showing the
arrival of R1b in the Balkans :
http://secher.bernard.free.fr/YamnayaMigrations.jpg . R1a is supposed
to have changed to IE language at the contact of R1b. A separate wave
of R1b is supposed to have reached Portugal by a different way ; this
group is responsible for the onset of the Beaker culture and
a logical consequence is that Beaker folks are believed to have spoken
an IE language. Here is a map of the diffusion of the Beaker culture
following O. Lemercier :
http://secher.bernard.free.fr/DNA/Diffusion_campaniforme.jpg .
R1a then is moving west to east as postulated by Anatole Klyosov :
http://secher.bernard.free.fr/CordedWare_to_Sintashta.jpg ; the
Sintashta culture is believed to have promoted the Andronovo culture
and the whole IE spread is starting from that point. May be the split
of R1a-DYS388=10 represents a small group moving west instead of east.
Now, let's have a look at a cladistic tree of IE languages :
http://secher.bernard.free.fr/DNA/IE-tree.jpeg
One can read this tree as follows : from the starting point Tocharians
are moving east while the main tree is going west. First the Italic -
Celtic branch is splitting of the main tree and it's a different path
to the west, then R1b is arriving in the Balkans (greeks) and the
German group is moving north where a "Satemisation" takes place.
Celtic and Italic groups coming from west get in contact with german
thus promoting a double influence on German (ht15-centum R1a-Satem).

I would add that horse might have been the main advantage of R1b. R1a
might have reached Europe following the domestication of dogs and
possibly the onset of early pastoralism. G2a groups may have been
metalsmiths following both R1b and R1a in their spread.
The Basque group is still an outlier....
Here is a nice R1a map : http://porlier.olympe-network.com/R1A_map.jpg

Didier




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