GENEALOGY-DNA-L ArchivesArchiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2010-11 > 1291152263
Subject: Re: [DNA] R1b and R1a fate
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 21:24:23 +0000 (UTC)
From: Vincent Vizachero
>You are wise to hedge against an Altaic origin of R1b because, indeed, the data tell a different story.
Empty words again. The story, please. With haplotype analysis, dates, timespans to common ancestors.
You failed to understand again, that "low variance" and "low TMRCA" are related to only one branch (aka lineage). In reality a combination of branches/lineages determines a timespan to THEIR common ancestor. It is
~ 17,000 ybp in R1b in the Altai region. Three times older compared to that is SW Asia.
P.S. Your story on DYS390 turned out to faulty as well. In the paper (Forster, 1988) which you quoted as an authoritative source, haplogroups were not determined at all, and haplotypes having DYS390 were comparing - the most likely - from different haplogroups. Hence, the gaps between them, in different markers. It is like to compare DYS392=11 (R1a1) and DYS392=13 (R1b1) and claim, that the whole "segment" of two alleles fell out. "Missing". Sure it is missing. :-)))
In R-M73 compared to R-M269 not a "third segment is missing", as you have claimed, but one TCTG, which "technically" is a segment, but in reality just a single allele. The same kind of "missing" goes from DYS390=25 to DYS390=24, only there one TCTA allele in "missing". Bogus.
There is no any proof that DYS390=24 to DYS390=19 transition goes NOT in five separate steps.
The Altai origin hypothesis is "much attacked" because it depends on
faulty data or, at best, faulty analysis of the data.
Some have taken the Zhong et al. R1b haplotypes and have
misinterpreted them in a number of important ways.
Although there are several subclades of R1b present in the Zhong
dataset from various central and eastern Asian populations (Han,
Uighur, etc.), the variance - and thus the estimated TMRCA - for
R1b1*, R1b1b1, and R1b1b2 are uniformly lower than for populations in
SW Asia or SE Europe.
You are wise to hedge against an Altaic origin of R1b because, indeed,
the data tell a different story.