Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2011-08 > 1313835696

From: "Bernard SECHER" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] The fate of R-L11 in Europe
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 12:21:36 +0200
References: <><>

Hi all,

I just come back at home after holidays and see this topic.

The L11(xU106,xP312) map from Myres paper is interesting. We can see three
L11 hot spots: 1st is in upper Danube, 2d is in north Europe (Germany,
,Poland and south scandinavia) and 3d is in England.

The england L11 hot spot could be the result of a Bell beaker migration from
Netherlands to England, and so hot spot 2 and hot spot 3 would be originated
from the same North Europe region.

In this case, we have 2 hot spots for L11: the first one is in the upper
Danube and could be the origine of P312, the second one in north Europe
could be the origine of U106.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike W" <>
To: <>
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 4:02 PM
Subject: Re: [DNA] The fate of R-L11 in Europe

> Didier,
> I didn't mean to imply that P312 and U106 had the exact same point of
> origin, but I just think the distance between their launch points couldn't
> be too great since they have about the same TMRCA as each other and as
> their
> common parent, the R-L11 MRCA. Also their modal haplotypes differ little.
> If
> one of us was tracking people in an DNA project that had a GD of only two
> or three from ourselves across 67 markers, at least I'd be pretty excited
> about it. We could be talking about the last 200 years or so. This is the
> situation with R-U106, R-P312 and R-L11*.
> I agree that P312 and U106 had different migration/expansion paths,
> although
> I'm not sure either's was pure. There was likely some other haplogroups
> mixed including a little bit of P312 going with some of the U106 groups or
> vica versa. I'm hesitant to use the word "pure" but if there was any
> extremely high frequency movement, it would be P312's moves to the west,
> not
> necessarily U106's expansion(s.) I'll dig up up some information on what
> I
> mean.
> Why do you propose an early origin for P312 origin in the Balkans? I
> understand there were a number cultural/people expansions that emanated
> from
> SE Europe but I can't find genetic evidence of P312 being south of the
> Lower
> Danube valley. In other words, I don't see high variance or high subclade
> diversity for P312 there. Do you find R-L11* there with some significant
> indicators of age?
> I wish I knew more about R-L11*. It is rare in Western Europe. Does
> anyone
> have an analysis of R-L11*?
> Regards,
> Mike
> ---------- Forwarded message From: <>
> ....I am not saying, for example, that the origin of P312 could be in
> Ireland where the frequency is higher. I was pointing a rather "pure" P312
> versus U106 split and this split, by itself, is a point to take into
> consideration if you consider R-L11, U106 and P312 going on the same path
> in
> the "conquest" of western Europe. What chances to get such a
> (geographical)
> split in a mixed population ? Any other example ?
> ....
> The 2 separate path that I have been proposing (P312 south, U106 north)
> can
> be with an early origin of P312 in the Balkans if the spread was fast to
> the
> west and close to the P312 origin.
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