Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2011-08 > 1314032715

Subject: Re: [DNA] The fate of R-L11 in Europe
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 13:05:15 -0400

I made up my mind about R-U106 and R-P312 but, first of all , I will need the opinion of experts on growth - expansion of a group versus variance. What I mean is that the 4300 years BP for R-P312 TMRCA (Heinila) could mean that R-P312 originated around 4900 BP but had a very limited expansion for six hundred years and only then expanded fast. Why ? I suspect more and more that R-P312 made some kind of secession from the parent group R-L11, this group went along with R-U106 and R-P312 went away.
My question for experts would be : is it possible to pinpoint such a 600 years resting time of growth before an expansion ?

Recently, I focused on G haplogroup and, interestingly enough G2a3b1a1 is also dated 4300. I suspect an association between R-P312 and G2a3b1a1. Until now I have no data of whether G2a3b1a1 was in Portugal but I am expecting it.

So, to summarize. R-U106 would have expanded from the site with known R-L11 : Switzerland (first) and then Holland and British isles ; R-U106 is to be expected along the Danube river and the Rhine river, probably the main axes of expansion at the beginning. R-P312 may have started in Switzerland (or nearby) BUT they didn't get along with R-L11 and R-U106 and I expect a resting time. At this early time a migration to Portugal was successful but it took several hundred years and the advent of bronze age until they expanded.

> I couldn't find a current long haplotype modal for R-U106 so I went ahead
> and created one from the FTDNA project data haplotypes, including those of
> 111 in length.
> At 96 markers (all Ysearch will hold) below are the GD's from P312.
> XQJ7H - R1b-P312(S116) [GD=0]
> K9VGV - R1b-L21(S145) (a subclade of P312) [GD=2]
> QM4ES - R1b-U152(S28) (" of P312) [GD=2]
> PEMD5 - R1b-Z196 (" of P312) [GD=4]
> N5PA5 - R1b-U106(S21) [GD=5]
> In my opinion, the Western Atlantic Modal Haplotype (WAMH) is an obsolete
> term. Effectively, R-P312's modal supersedes it.
> For 96 markers, there is a GD of 5 between P312 and U106. 492 is the only
> slow STR difference. After that its 390, then its 576, CDYa and 714. Since
> their TMRCA estimates are not far apart, the R-L11 MRCA would only hundreds
> of years earlier, not thousands. Either they are roughly from the same
> geography and/or they were very mobile in their expansion - which I suppose
> could fit with Bell Beaker folks.
> Mike
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Mike W <>
> ...
> The reasons I think U106 and P312 and their R-L11* brothers must originate
> from the same general area (I'm not pinpointing anything):
> 1. U106 and P312 are immediately downstream of R-L11
> 2. U106, P312 and R-L11 itself all come out with TMRCA's close to each
> other.
> 3. The modal haplotypes for U106, P312 and R-L11 itself are close to each
> other.
> -------------------------------
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