Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2011-11 > 1321053060

From: vernade didier <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Correct TMRCA analysis
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 23:11:00 +0000 (GMT)
In-Reply-To: <>

I am not sure my posts are read. Anyway I insist . We are talking of very old DNA and the presence of E-V13 in Spain  on a DNA aproximatively dated 7000 bp was a surprise for everyone. The paper is not discussing the surprising position of this E-V13 . The possibility of some kind of artefact is to be considered.
Let's take the problem the other way around : what happened to the spanish E-V13 ?

A couple more pertinent facts:

Klyosov claimed that E-V13 was formed  2,600ybp. He did not claim that
the MRCA of living men lived 2,600ybp, and he explicitly excluded
involvement of E-V13 in pre-2,600ybp events, on the basis of that
inference. His inference was wrong, E-V13 was present in Europe long
before 2,600ybp, and hence could not have been excluded as a
participant in pre-2,600ybp events.

Klyosov is invited to calculate the TMRCA of the Neolithic Spanish
haplotypes with those of living E-V13 men using his method. If his
method is as accurate as he claims it to be, surely there ought to be
at least a 4,400ybp timespan between the "base haplotype" of modern
E-V13 men (which he estimates at 2,600ybp) and the 7,000ybp old

On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 10:02 PM, Dienekes Pontikos
<> wrote:
> You should first remind yourself of that fact, since your entire
> oeuvre is based on making elaborate links between archaeological
> events and TMRCAs of living men.
> Also, you are wrong on practical grounds for this E-V13, as the
> haplotype found in Neolithic Spain has identical matches in
> present-day populations, and there is no reason to think that it
> belongs to an extinct branch of E-V13 that did not contribute to
> present-day E-V13 men.
> On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 9:49 PM,  <> wrote:
>> Funny. I thought that everyone here understands that by measuring TMRCA we identify the timespan to a SURVIVED common ancestor, who might very likely pass a population bottleneck and his DNA was carried on to the present time. By studying excavated bones we measure a timespan to an actual person who might likely died well before that population bottleneck.
> --
> Dienekes' Anthropology Blog:
> Dodecad Ancestry Project:

Dienekes' Anthropology Blog:
Dodecad Ancestry Project:

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