GENEALOGY-DNA-L Archives

Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2011-11 > 1321352412


From: "Anatole Klyosov" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] More evidence for the North African route of R1b intoWestern Europe
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 05:20:12 -0500
References: <mailman.317.1321344042.27328.genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com>


> From: Paul Conroy <>
> In term of cattle in Western Europe, the Kerry cattle breed is a fairly
> unique breed. Kerry is in the extreme South West of the country.
> I read decades ago that the Kerry breed has some similarities with cattle
> in Nigeria.

>>>Anatole Klyosov, December 2010: All these subclades have entered Europe
>>>from at least two directions - via Asia Minor to "Italy" and the Balkans
>>>(around 4500 ybp), and across North Africa and up to Iberia (4800 ybp).
>>>L23 did not survive in Iberia, and only little of L11 left there,
>>>however, the last
>>>one had managed to spin off U106 and P312 in Iberia. They moved up North
>>>as Bell Beakers."

>>Lancaster-Boon, December 2010: "Now, as far as I know, and also looking at
>>your
>>OWN explanations, there is absolutely no genetic, linguistic, or
>>archaeological data
>>which supports this African migration

My response:

Thank you Paul for your detailed account of the issue. In fact, it was long
known that
domesticated animals had been moved from North Africa across the Gibraltar
Strait
thousands years ago, and details and considerations about it are scattered
in scientific
publications in various disciplines. The material you brought here and
referred to is one
of the most detailed ones. Besides, there are linguistic evidences, of
course, as well as
archaeological evidences. All of them are circumstantial, as typical for
this kind of
evidences, among them the oldest artifacts of Bell Beakers in Portugal, and
I think now
there is no doubt that the Bell Beakers, and least the "first" ones, were
R1b1a2. More
data emerge on the North African route of R1b1a2 from the Middle East to
Iberia. All
of it can be discussed, of course. However, people who do not know, commonly
take
negative style in discussions. I always wonder - why? It seems that somebody
elses new
ideas make those people uncomfortable. One would think - if you do not know,
and you
are not the authors of those ideas, ask questions or sit quietly. However,
we do not live
in the ideal world.

Thank again for your informative contribution.

Anatole Klyosov

***********************

Paul Conroy:

> Hi I'd like to post a comment on - see full text below:
> http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2010-12/1291755063
>
> In term of cattle in Western Europe, the Kerry cattle breed is a fairly
> unique breed. Kerry is in the extreme South West of the country.
>
> I read decades ago that the Kerry breed has some similarities with cattle
> in Nigeria. Reading Sam's comments prompted me to look into this more, and
> here's what I found:
>
> Title: "Shorthorn cattle of West and Central Africa I. Origin,
> distribution, classification and population statistics"
> URL: http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/T1300T/T1300T04.HTM
>
> Extract:
>
> The African cattle population is a result of three major introductions
> from
> centres of domestication in Asia (Epstein, 1957; Faulkner and Epstein,
> 1957; Payne, 1970; Williamson and Payne, 1977; Oliver, 1983), which mostly
> followed the Nile Valley through Egypt or came through the Horn of Africa
> (Figure 1)...

>... This may explain the route taken
> westward along the North African Mediterranean coast. ... the
> Shorthorns split into two routes around Morocco. One stream moved north
> into present-day France and the British Isles - the Jersey, Guernsey and
> Kerry breeds are partly derived-from this stock

> On Dec 7, 2010, Lancaster-Boon wrote:
> ....;.
>> "All these subclades have entered Europe from at least two directions -
> via Asia Minor to "Italy" and the Balkans (around 4500 ybp), and across
> North
>> Africa and up to Iberia (4800 ybp). L23 did not survive in Iberia, and
> only little of L11 left there, however, the last one had managed to spin
> off U106
>> and P312 in Iberia. They moved up North as Bell Beakers."
>>
>> Now, as far as I know, and also looking at your OWN explanations, there
> is absolutely no genetic, linguistic, or archaeological data which
> supports
>> this African migration?
>> ....
>> I guess I may ask for some beef concerning this North African theory? :)
>


This thread: