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Archiver > HERBARZ > 2003-08 > 1059966568


From: "Thomas Lassek" <>
Subject: Re: Query ..
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 22:09:28 -0500
References: <008301c35977$7c8b9a90$4586aec7@inspiron> <002401c35983$7a4d4ce0$210110ac@THINKPAD>


----- Original Message -----
From: "David Zincavage" <>
To: "Thomas Lassek" <>; <>
Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2003 12:52 AM
Subject: Re: Query ..


> If you are correct in the general date, it would seem most probable that
> your ancestor emigrated as the result of the failure of the January
> Insurrection of 1863-1864, had served as an insurrectionist, and left to
> escape prosecution. Participation in the insurrections tended to be more
> common on the part of the gentry than the peasantry, but there were
> exceptions, of course.

Thank you for this and all the information that you provide. Today I learn
more.

Question: The paragraph above certainly rings true since my GGGrandfather
was a soldier who died about this time period and my GGrandfather would have
been 18 years of age. The 1867 date of emigration to the US is confirmed. I
have yet to research the specific "war" or insurrection but it looks that
you may have identified it for me. I have one question: The insurrection of
1863-64 was on the Eastern portion of Poland (Russian) if I recall
correctly. My Family was centered in a small village (Rybowo) on the Western
part of Poland near Poznan.
Do you feel that this insurrection affected all of Poland, East to West, and
do you think that commoners from over the entirety of Poland were "drafted"
to fight for Poland ??


> 3. If one is able to establish descent from anyone living in the past who
> was believed at the time to be armigerous, one is regarded as armigous
> oneself. Nobility does not necessarily descend from any known
ennoblement.
> Many people descent from "the immemorial nobility," such families having
> been in the noble estate from periods previous to any meaningful
> record-keeping. This conceptual distinction in Germany is referred to in
> terms of the Ur-Adel and the Briefe-Adel. In France, as the noblesse de
> l'epee and the noblesse de la robe. When church records are exhausted,
it
> may be possible to find some earlier information in notarial records or in
> published sources. Probabilities of finding such information would tend
to
> correlate largely with property ownership & office holding.

Question: Concerning "the immemorial nobility", I understand what you said
but I don't know if I quite understand what you mean. In my simple mind, it
appears a paradox. On one hand it would be impossible to identify with a
Noble Family of a Noble Estate if no records yet existed to establish
lineage. On the other hand, it would appear that if one today simply
possessed the surname of a Noble Family, of a Noble Estate, in existance
prior to meaningful record keeping, one would then be considered Noble. ??
Where am I wrong ??

Lastly, I have another question, and it's rather direct. Obviously you sir
descend from the Polish Nobility. Since Polish law has relegated the
Nobility to the "back burner", as it were, those of the Nobility are unable
to legally exercise their talents and obligations as leaders during peace
and war.

It would appear to me, that the few chosen today who descend from Polish
Nobility have both the distinction of birthright and correspondingly, the
obligation to fulfil it. Since the distinction is obvious, and in today's
world, what do you consider your obligation ??

Again ..... I thank you for your assisting me.

Tom Lassek
Eufaula Alabama


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